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Old 11-20-2007, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 5,573,719 times
Reputation: 1002

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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolan View Post
The Spanish inquisition killed 2000 people over a period of 350 years.

You are blowing smoke and don't even know it!

Check out the Albigensian Crusade. It happened in the 13th century, way before the Spanish Inquisition.

Albigensian Crusade (1209-1255)
The Cathars: The Medieval Inquisition in the Languedoc
ORB: The Online Reference Book for Medieval Studies
The Albigensian Crusade and the Inquisition (4of10)

Here are photos of the last two Cathar citadels that fell:
Chateau Montsegur (http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=357472906&size=l - broken link)
Chateau Quéribus


//
The Albigensian Crusade [(or Cathar Crusade) of 1209–1229] was a 20-year military campaign initiated by the Roman Catholic Church to eliminate the heresy of the Cathars of Languedoc.

When Innocent III's diplomatic attempts to roll back Catharism[1] met with little success, he declared a crusade against Languedoc, offering the lands of the schismatics to any French nobleman willing to take up arms. The violence, extreme even by medieval standards, led to France's acquiring of lands with closer cultural and linguistic ties to Catalonia (see Occitan). An estimated 200,000 people died during the crusade.
...

The Inquisition was established in Toulouse in November 1229, and the process of ridding the area of Cathar heresy and investing their remaining strongholds began. Under Pope Gregory IX the Inquistion was given great power to suppress the heresy. A campaign started in 1233, burning vehement and relapsed Cathars wherever they were found, even exhuming some bodies for burning. Many still resisted, taking refuge in fortresses at Fenouillèdes and Montségur, or inciting small uprisings. In 1235, the Inquisition was forced out of Albi, Narbonne, and Toulouse. Raymond-Roger de Trencavel led a military campaign in 1240. He was defeated at Carcassonne in October, then besieged at Montréal. He soon surrendered and was exiled in Aragon. In 1242, Raymond of Toulouse attempted to revolt in conjunction with an English invasion, but the English were quickly repulsed and his support evaporated. He was subsequently pardoned by the king.

The Cathar strongholds fell one by one. Montségur withstood a nine-month siege before being taken in March 1244. The final holdout, a small, isolated, overlooked fort at Quéribus, quickly fell in August 1255. The last known Cathar burning occurred in 1321.
//

Did you also realize that the Spanish Inquisition was 'blowback' so to speak, given the fact that practically all of what is today the territory of Spain was under the rule of Muslim occupiers for the previous 700 years! The local pre-Spanish cultures had been culturally traumatized for centuries leading up to the Inquisition.

Blow that smoke!

Last edited by ParkTwain; 11-21-2007 at 12:20 AM..
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Old 11-20-2007, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 5,573,719 times
Reputation: 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolan View Post
If we hold religious regimes responsible for the crimes done in God's name, we should hold atheist regimes responsible for the crimes done in the name of creating an atheist utopia. Let's not blame religion not only for its own offenses but also for the offenses done by atheists on behalf of an atheist ideology.

By the way, the dominant culture of China is an 'atheist ideology' (Confucianism) by your definition and has been since the 6th century BC. You don't even know what you're talking about.
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:01 AM
 
Location: UK
109 posts, read 139,431 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi, nothing went wrong if this is the way that God designed it or planned it. God knew what would happen and nothing caught Him off guard or messed up His plan. He did not make any mistakes. believe that the devil sinned from beginning and I believe that God created the crafty serpent. He placed everything right there in the garden and knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do. He intended for all of it to happen and we are learning in the process.
Huh! Why would any deity do something when the outcome is already known? That's a bit like you pulling the legs off a fly...just to see if it will walk! If your argument is that "everything happened as planned" you are in fact arguing that the Xian God, who you see as loving and benevolent, is nothing more than an evil tyrant who created beings that he knew would choose evil, infect the planet with the same and cause misery and suffering for ever more.
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:06 AM
 
Location: UK
109 posts, read 139,431 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolan View Post
The Spanish inquisition killed 2000 people over a period of 350 years. By contrast, atheist tyrants like Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot killed tens of millions within the space of a few decades.

If we hold religious regimes responsible for the crimes done in God's name, we should hold atheist regimes responsible for the crimes done in the name of creating an atheist utopia. Let's not blame religion not only for its own offenses but also for the offenses done by atheists on behalf of an atheist ideology.
Nonsense! Mao and Stalin didn't kill people because they were atheist...... any more than Hitler killed 6 million Jews because he was Xian. All three killed for power.
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:20 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,504,659 times
Reputation: 1540
Originally Posted by Oakback
Quote:
So....do YOU believe that a "higher power" has some responsibility?
If I jump of a bridge, it is I who killed myself and not God or gravity. Guns do not kill people, people kill people.
So do I believe in a higher power? No, but I believe that God=Love.
I also do not believe in a lower power or the devil either, but I know that evil, like love, exists.
I simply believe that to know = to act and that every action has a reaction and that free will = responsibility .
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:05 AM
 
144 posts, read 281,997 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi, nothing went wrong if this is the way that God designed it or planned it. God knew what would happen and nothing caught Him off guard or messed up His plan. He did not make any mistakes. I believe that the devil sinned from beginning and I believe that God created the crafty serpent. He placed everything right there in the garden and knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do. He intended for all of it to happen and we are learning in the process. We wouldn't know what good is without the experience of evil. God bless.

Sounds like you are describing the Christian version of "the devil". Essentially you are saying, god has purposefully created human beings and all other living things inferior to himself. In addition, he is intentionally keeping us in the dark, slowly dispensing information(you call this "learning") to us through a "process" that has caused surely billions of deaths since "the beginning". All of this death, torture, violence, disease etc...is so that ultimately, only 144,000 out of how many total people have ever inhabited earth(??-there are billions alive right now!), can live forever?

Can someone PLEASE make an XBOX game out of this scenario so that people can see how violent and vile this whole concept is?? You are basically say that the majority of us are just a waste product for god(a means to an end). The end being that he finally creates a human, whose perfection is defined as "obeying" god in lockstep. People say that the bible god didn't want to create automatons without freewill...but it seems like he did(ultimately, that's what he gets) but he just wanted to have some fun with the rest of us before he got there.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:22 AM
 
Location: NC
11,594 posts, read 9,000,773 times
Reputation: 1271
Quote:
Sounds like you are describing the Christian version of "the devil". Essentially you are saying, god has purposefully created human beings and all other living things inferior to himself. In addition, he is intentionally keeping us in the dark, slowly dispensing information(you call this "learning") to us through a "process" that has caused surely billions of deaths since "the beginning".
Yes.


Quote:
All of this death, torture, violence, disease etc...is so that ultimately, only 144,000 out of how many total people have ever inhabited earth(??-there are billions alive right now!), can live forever?
No, I believe that eventually all will live forever. All are not being saved at this time, but all will eventually be saved and perfected. (Romans 8, Ephesians 1)


Quote:
Can someone PLEASE make an XBOX game out of this scenario so that people can see how violent and vile this whole concept is?? You are basically say that the majority of us are just a waste product for god(a means to an end).
No, I never said that. No one that God creates is a waste product. All were made for Christ and all will eventually be reunited in Christ according to Ephesians 1:10. Take care and God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-21-2007 at 07:30 AM.. Reason: typos, addition
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:54 AM
 
Location: NC
11,594 posts, read 9,000,773 times
Reputation: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Hi, nothing went wrong if this is the way that God designed it or planned it. God knew what would happen and nothing caught Him off guard or messed up His plan. He did not make any mistakes. believe that the devil sinned from beginning and I believe that God created the crafty serpent. He placed everything right there in the garden and knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do. He intended for all of it to happen and we are learning in the process.

Quote:
Huh! Why would any deity do something when the outcome is already known? That's a bit like you pulling the legs off a fly...just to see if it will walk! If your argument is that "everything happened as planned" you are in fact arguing that the Xian God, who you see as loving and benevolent, is nothing more than an evil tyrant who created beings that he knew would choose evil, infect the planet with the same and cause misery and suffering for ever more.
Hi, I believe that the experience of evil is to teach us good. He is breaking us to make us. When all are eventually subjected to Christ, God will be all in all. Endless misery and endless suffering are not the final goal or outcome. God bless.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:57 AM
 
144 posts, read 281,997 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Yes.




No, I believe that eventually all will live forever. All are not being saved at this time, but all will eventually be saved and perfected. (Romans 8, Ephesians 1)




No, I never said that. No one that God creates is a waste product. All were made for Christ and all will eventually be reunited in Christ according to Ephesians 1:4. Take care and God bless.
We were "created", "written-in" to a story according to many believers. Why do we need "saving", and how can one conclude that the one who can save us is the one who wrote this terrible plot? This sounds like an episode of Heroes.

It is "the creator" who wrote the story, are you telling me that he created a tragedy simply so that he could save the day? You know, they have a name for that. It's called munchausen by proxy.
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:18 AM
 
Location: NC
11,594 posts, read 9,000,773 times
Reputation: 1271
Quote:

We were "created", "written-in" to a story according to many believers. Why do we need "saving", and how can one conclude that the one who can save us is the one who wrote this terrible plot? This sounds like an episode of Heroes.

It is "the creator" who wrote the story, are you telling me that he created a tragedy simply so that he could save the day? You know, they have a name for that. It's called munchausen by proxy.
Yes, it is a play, drama or like tragedy and we need to be saved because God is teaching us about Himself and about ourselves. This is how He designed it. He created us to fall and He alone is able to save us. He is making us into His image and the experience of evil is a part of the process. It is like a great tragedy with a glorious ending though

Quote:
One day, God will humble all of us and show us that salvation is His creative work. It is God who opens our eyes, it is God who keeps us from falling, and it is God who will eventually deliver us from this “body of death.” He is the author and finisher of all things—and so we must see that salvation is His work, not ours.
Ken Ecke

"For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things..." Romans 11:36

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-21-2007 at 08:24 AM.. Reason: addition
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