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There's a litmus test for faith? One has to be "devout" to call themselves a Christian?
Isn't the point of the article that "religious people" tend to lie more? I don't see from the survey that the people they surveyed are all that religious or that they're serious about their faith.
The writer seems to be trying to draw the link between religion and dishonesty, but there is a fundamental flaw in their research--they need to prove that they've actually surveyed religious people.
Quote:
Lol, I can just see it: We take a survey and have to tick a box for our faith and someone in the back of the room is yelling, "Don't you check that box! I didn't see you at church on Sunday and besides..... you're Catholic!"
I've never suggested anything on this thread regarding catholicism -- I've known some very devout, very honest people that were catholic.
Now...again, I question....how serious are those folks in the survey about their faith?
My initial reaction to this survey above was that hard and fast conclusions that could be drawn from it are questionable, and that is why I actually kind of agree with you on this particular point. The level of devotion to a religion, or to any worldview, would have some influence on the degree to which one adheres to its principles, including honesty. Or at least you'd think so. And the rigorousness and effectiveness of a particular teaching might differ from religion to religion regardless of levels of personal devotion. So it would be interesting if such a study could control for both the religion one belongs to and some measure of the level of devotion to it. Assuming someone had the funds to go to that level of detail.
I doubt that the results would make much difference, and you probably think otherwise, so it'd be interesting to have some objective data on the matter.
I ran across a survey awhile back that does attempt to classify believers by things like frequency of church attendance and self-reported devotional activities like prayer and beliefs about prayer, etc. I felt a couple of aspects of its classification system were questionable, but it felt like a step in the right direction. Those researchers however were not measuring honesty, IIRC, it was more political leanings and the like.
One caution, however, and that is that "seriousness" cuts both ways. A liberal Episcopalian may be quite serious indeed about their faith (I've known a couple) but may not impress you as serious by your standards because maybe it's important to you that they get up an hour early every morning for personal devotions -- prayer, Bible study, and the like. An Episcopalian may be ardent about entirely different things, like running a soup kitchen or some other form of outreach that they devote their personal time to -- something you would potentially decry as "social gospel". So it might be hard to measure "devotion" or "seriousness" because there is no agreed universal standard for that, even within Christendom. In fact, it's rather personal.
Finally, I don't think this study was ever claiming to study anything other than the religious and areligious, or put another way, those who claim to believe in god in a way that impacts the way they conduct themselves, and those who do not. In the real world, we can't usually drill down to much level of detail and so it might be practical to be disabused of a general assumption that people who are in any sense "religious" tend to be more honest. Although I find it hard to believe that most people would be that naive.
I wasn't suggesting they were muslims in the survey--I answered the question of what religion would value lying. My point is that there are some.
Now...again, I question....how serious are those folks in the survey about their faith? In this country something like 80% of the people CLAIM Christianity...yet we know that 80% of the people are not devout Christians. Do the people in this survey ACTUALLY practice the religion they claim? Do they ACTUALLY believe it?
I would say that the more devout they are, the more likely they would be to lie (especially to themselves) to protect their beliefs.
I would say that the more devout they are, the more likely they would be to lie (especially to themselves) to protect their beliefs.
I agree, and that a generally religious person tends to lie a bit more would be exactly what we would expect to find if that were true. I certainly lied to myself when I was a fundie, and you can only be as honest with others as you are with yourself.
It would be helpful if this association could be demonstrated conclusively, but I think that would actually be a bit difficult to pull off. You'd have to have definitions for "religious" and "devout", etc., that could be objectively evaluated. Seems like that'd be tough.
Based on my life experiences, I would say that most "so called" religious people are definitely more prone to lie. I think that many get so used to telling lies just to keep their fake image, that they are then more prone to lie about other things.
Almost every statistic that I have ever looked up has shown religious people (Christians) to be WORSE off than others. IMO many use religion as a cover up for who they really are.
Look at the Bible-Belt states for crying out loud. They lead the country in violent crime, obesity, poverty, poor health, lack of education, cable porn subscriptions, teenage pregnancy, teenage suicide, divorce rates, infant mortality rates, lowest life expectancy,racism, poorest overall quality of life, so on and SO ON! You name it!
I live in Tennessee where religion is everything. Meanwhile the state is ranked anywhere from 45th to 50th in every bad statistic there is.
Only God knows the true heart of an individual not a religious--correlative survey Theists are ones who call themselves Christians can fool the public but obviously we don't fool God.
My initial reaction to this survey above was that hard and fast conclusions that could be drawn from it are questionable, and that is why I actually kind of agree with you on this particular point. The level of devotion to a religion, or to any worldview, would have some influence on the degree to which one adheres to its principles, including honesty. Or at least you'd think so. And the rigorousness and effectiveness of a particular teaching might differ from religion to religion regardless of levels of personal devotion. So it would be interesting if such a study could control for both the religion one belongs to and some measure of the level of devotion to it. Assuming someone had the funds to go to that level of detail.
I doubt that the results would make much difference, and you probably think otherwise, so it'd be interesting to have some objective data on the matter.
I ran across a survey awhile back that does attempt to classify believers by things like frequency of church attendance and self-reported devotional activities like prayer and beliefs about prayer, etc. I felt a couple of aspects of its classification system were questionable, but it felt like a step in the right direction. Those researchers however were not measuring honesty, IIRC, it was more political leanings and the like.
One caution, however, and that is that "seriousness" cuts both ways. A liberal Episcopalian may be quite serious indeed about their faith (I've known a couple) but may not impress you as serious by your standards because maybe it's important to you that they get up an hour early every morning for personal devotions -- prayer, Bible study, and the like. An Episcopalian may be ardent about entirely different things, like running a soup kitchen or some other form of outreach that they devote their personal time to -- something you would potentially decry as "social gospel". So it might be hard to measure "devotion" or "seriousness" because there is no agreed universal standard for that, even within Christendom. In fact, it's rather personal.
Finally, I don't think this study was ever claiming to study anything other than the religious and areligious, or put another way, those who claim to believe in god in a way that impacts the way they conduct themselves, and those who do not. In the real world, we can't usually drill down to much level of detail and so it might be practical to be disabused of a general assumption that people who are in any sense "religious" tend to be more honest. Although I find it hard to believe that most people would be that naive.
My point simply is that I'm not sure the article really makes the case that they actually sampled a group that would support the claims they're making.
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