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Wow, that actually just opened up another can of worms.
That being, do we just not realize our own potential...when indeed, if we did we could
go beyond Physical Laws...wasn't that the exact thing Jesus tried to show everyone...gee, he
went so far as to dematerialize in front of a crowd...seems to me to expand human consciousness
or possibilities...that all is not what it seems....in other words ...realize who you
are and fly like Jonathan L Seagull.....get rid of the paperchains!!
Ok you got me thinking. Thank you.
I know I'm going to catch hell of this but here it goes:
Now this brings up another interesting delima, if we are both spiritual and physical beings which world do we buy into. While the physical world has laws and restrictions which we accept then we bind ourselves to this world by accepting these laws. As spiritual beings there are no physical restrictions, can we have it both ways? Like you referenced in your post about Jesus, is this something he knew due to him being in touch with and accepting his spiritual nature, therefore nothing he did was a miracle, he did what came natural to him.
I do believe that the person Jesus did exist, and I do believe that he was indeed in touch with the spiritual self. What I don't believe is that his nature is unique unto himself alone, I do think that he tried teach all who would listen about the nature of who they are, his salvation came in the form of saving people from themselves and not from some form of evil. He was pointing the direction toward that in which we all are, however, most don't look at the direction and only focus on the finger doing the pointing.
I know I'm going to catch hell of this but here it goes:
Now this brings up another interesting delima, if we are both spiritual and physical beings which world do we buy into. While the physical world has laws and restrictions which we accept then we bind ourselves to this world by accepting these laws. As spiritual beings there are no physical restrictions, can we have it both ways? Like you referenced in your post about Jesus, is this something he knew due to him being in touch with and accepting his spiritual nature, therefore nothing he did was a miracle, he did what came natural to him.
I do believe that the person Jesus did exist, and I do believe that he was indeed in touch with the spiritual self. What I don't believe is that his nature is unique unto himself alone, I do think that he tried teach all who would listen about the nature of who they are, his salvation came in the form of saving people from themselves and not from some form of evil. He was pointing the direction toward that in which we all are, however, most don't look at the direction and only focus on the finger doing the pointing.
Fair post, I only want to comment on the blue bits. Your beliefs are personal and on no way comes across as snarky. Pity a few more folk were (not?) like that. (that is meant as a compliment but does not sound right)
I too can relate to a more secular type of Jesus and take away some good things. IMO, (assuming he did exist and what is reported is what he said - I do not believe that to be true) he came across very anti religious esp when you read Matt 23. and esp verse 15.
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
In my early daze in my woo phase, I wrote a letter to the leadership and this chapter happened to form the content of my "prophesy" against them. I was convinced I was "led by the HS" but looking back, it seemed to fit what I was observing compared to what I was reading and was probably the seedling phase of my deconversion.
Ironically, the prophesy came true and the leadership fell apart. They then imported an new sheriff from another town but he shot me in the back, that was my last pastor. We later kissed and made up but his band really sucked and I was rated the best P&W leader in the town; the first time I walked out he lost a lot of members. Church politics. When I went back, the church started to grow again. The issue was my smoking. If he did not pull the repentance act on me, I would have been out of the madness a lot sooner, but like I alluded to earlier, we do not always learn from our mistakes.
The evil you alluded to IMO is religion and at the end of the day causes more consternation than it takes away.
Fair post, I only want to comment on the blue bits. Your beliefs are personal and on no way comes across as snarky. Pity a few more folk were (not?) like that. (that is meant as a compliment but does not sound right)
I too can relate to a more secular type of Jesus and take away some good things. IMO, (assuming he did exist and what is reported is what he said - I do not believe that to be true) he came across very anti religious esp when you read Matt 23. and esp verse 15.
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
In my early daze in my woo phase, I wrote a letter to the leadership and this chapter happened to form the content of my "prophesy" against them. I was convinced I was "led by the HS" but looking back, it seemed to fit what I was observing compared to what I was reading and was probably the seedling phase of my deconversion.
Ironically, the prophesy came true and the leadership fell apart. They then imported an new sheriff from another town but he shot me in the back, that was my last pastor. We later kissed and made up but his band really sucked and I was rated the best P&W leader in the town; the first time I walked out he lost a lot of members. Church politics. When I went back, the church started to grow again. The issue was my smoking. If he did not pull the repentance act on me, I would have been out of the madness a lot sooner, but like I alluded to earlier, we do not always learn from our mistakes.
The evil you alluded to IMO is religion and at the end of the day causes more consternation than it takes away.
Yes, I would agree that the evil is in the religion, as I alluded to in another post: Man creates his god, then creates a religion that defines his god, the more vengeful the god the more vengeful the religion and the more vengeful the religion the more vengeful followers.
Just want to add: Man will inflict unspeakable horrors upon others if their god demands it, this we see played out through out the bible, we see this primarily within the Abrahamic belief system, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, why, because god says he is a "vengeful god".
Last edited by Terryj; 10-30-2013 at 12:49 PM..
Reason: For addition
Boy, if I create my own God...."He' is quite somehing!!!!!
"He" is everywhere, even in the spaces of nothingness between the sparkles of
Paisley kaliedoscope colored lights I see with my eyes shut...in the protons and the spaces
between the electrons' orbits....He hides in every molecule and each molecule is a world
of its own that He is in...
He is aware if every root of every plant living, feeling them burrowing down
Into the dakk moist soil for nutrition, at the same time they all are stretching, maybe thru concrete to reach
the Sun and is each chemical as each plant in the ocean and on Russian mountains does its photosynthesis
turning C02 to 02, etc. None of this would exist without this Source or Creator.
He is right now sustaining a planet in a galaxy we haven't discovered yet with 150 billion
Suns like ours, but most 50xs larger, that hides in a cluster of 10,000 other galaxiers as viewed from Earth hiding
behind my thumbnail as I hold it to the sky. As I turn in another direction holding my thumb out He is sustaining 150 billion more Suns
in one galaxy in another cluster of 10,000 galaxies...all hidden by my thumbnail.
He is maintaining such a force on this planet that it takes megatons of rocket fuel to lift a rocket and break it's hold.
And all while saying this, that is only the God I have made in my imagine in the THIRD
Dimension! He is maintaning souls and planets galore in Astral Worlds at a frequency beyond our
Electro magnetic spectrum...way beyond gamma rays. None of this would exist or be maintained consciously without this Being, God, Spirit.
He is digesting my food and breathing me and you right now, squirting out so many chemicals in our bodies, pinching so many
sphyncter muscles and closing all the valves in every living creaturr on Earth.
And this is why no one should read the Bible...but rather experience "God" for themselves.
Directly, personally within themselves...be still ... and get rid of concepts fed to
people that that is impossible or nonsense or for looney people.
And this is why no one should read the Bible...but rather experience "God" for themselves.
Directly, personally within themselves...be still ... and get rid of concepts fed to
people that that is impossible or nonsense or for looney people.
I have no substantive disagreement with SeekerSA. Free will is mostly an illusion. Choice is limited. Sometimes, in some ways, we have enough decent choices that we can find enjoyment and fulfillment (again within limits). Happiness basically consists in having low enough expectations combined with good enough luck and lots of mental and existential flexibility. I see it as a sort of "framing game" where "stuff" falls from the sky, reframing your reality, and then you reframe your view of reality in response, to make best use of your "new normal". We are kept busy with this constant churn, and our constant engagement creates the illusion of free will, progress, meaningful activity, etc. The key seems to be, to not take any of it seriously. It is an absurdity; laugh at it.
Free will does not mean complete license to do whatever without consequence. This absurd straw man seems to arise whenever the topic arises. Everything is limited. We live in a bounded and constrained reality . . . that is not optional or subject to caprice. That does not mean we have no free will within those bounds and constraints! It simply means free will to do whatever and accept the consequences . . . good or bad.
And this is why no one should read the Bible...but rather experience "God" for themselves.
Directly, personally within themselves...be still ... and get rid of concepts fed to
people that that is impossible or nonsense or for looney people.
Odd that you would lead off here with an example that is clearly a pre-deterministic one. They had no free will as they were required to obey. In fact this such a poor example as based on the tale, they had no idea of what the consequences would be. Who actually told them the truth? The snake. Eve does not die and offers the fruit to Adam and the only result is they become aware of their nakedness.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree as to A&E. They were offered a choice by God, their Creator, to accept His Divine Love in order to obtain immortality. Because they "disobeyed" the request, it still doesn't mean they had no choice. As for the story of the snake and the apple, they are pure symbolism and did not happen.
Quote:
There is a pretty good vid that explores the aspect what if Adam refused to eat the fruit? Adult content (cannot find it right now, perhaps another poster can)
There was never any fruit involved, unless you want to characterize their "pride" and "vanity" as fruit.
Quote:
We enter a realm of what iffery that would negate the rest of the biblical tale. Would they have been kicked out of the garden? Who would till the fields? It is a set up to lend credence to the rest of the story and the beginning of deflection of consequence. If you actually study the tale, it is Cain who has the run in with sin and not Adam or Eve. Furthermore, why place a forbidden tree there plus the snake in the first place. This reeks more of a predestination to failure.
Well, were they kicked out of the garden? If they would have accepted God's offer by using their free will for which He gave them, then there wouldn't have been any need to till the fields. The reason for that was their spiritual powers were removed and they became more humanized and, hence, the need for food as we know it, rather than spiritual food which was theirs in the beginning.
Quote:
As soon as you introduce the word "limited", you have conceded that we do not have free will. Either it exists or it does not.
As I said, free will is a gift given to us by God... not man. I was just using examples of how men, who in their desire to control us through government regulations, etc., limits that gift of free will.
As to the rest of your comments, well, we live in an imperfect world unfortunately. Thanks for your thoughtful response.
If it was really free will there would be more choices than just those two.
If I placed you in a room with two doors and announced that going through Door A will lead to unlimited and perpetual happiness, and Door B will lead to endless suffering, I have stacked the deck. "You are free to choose" say I, but it is very much the same choice an armed robber gives you..."You money or your life...choose!"
Okay, well, nobody has to love God... how about like? How about acknowledging His existence even if you don't go along with Him.
As to Door B... how are you assured that "endless suffering" is involved? I realize that everybody will not choose Door A, but what about Door C?
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