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Simple question: Can you "choose" to believe in god? I had this conversation with a woman the other day, she a believer, me not so much. She claims you can just"choose" to believe something, while I believe that you can not. I can not force my brain to think a certain way. I asked her if I should just turn my brain off, and she said "if that's what it takes" What do you guys think?
No. One is either convinced by the evidence or not convinced by the evidence. However, one CAN choose to ignore the evidence, as so many clearly do, and compartmentalize their approaches to a particular subject matter.
No, that's my point. I can choose to SAY I believe in something, but that doesn't mean I believe it. I personally think that you can't believe in something that your brain says in unbelievable. Which is why she told me to turn my brain off if that's what it took.
I think that "choosing" to ignore contravening evidence isn't really choosing to believe, it is simply choosing to pretend to believe when belief has already been undermined.
Belief can be based on probabilities and plausibilities in the absence of total proof and rock solid evidence, and that is how my faith started out. At the age of five, I was far too immature and inexperienced to notice all the disconnect between the particular theist worldview I was exposed to, and the real world. Gradually, as I was exposed to more and more of the real world, and particularly as I encountered some of the most unfortunate and unsavory aspects of it, I saw less and less probability and plausibility that my faith was going to somehow overcome or compensate for all that, much less render it explicable or comprehensible.
Eventually I was able to examine a pretty good variety of theist ideations and worldviews and with the highly provisional exception of Buddhism found them all just as severely wanting.
My journey from fully embraced theism to fully embraced atheism by way of a search for some alternative belief system that would frame things in such a way as to salvage any sort of theistic outlook, took about 20 years -- the last coda where I was seriously and objectively examining alternatives being maybe 2 years. In other words 18 years of clinging to the original paradigm and 2 looking for a replacement. After that it was maybe 6 months of resisting the atheist label and its stigma while trying to convince myself that agnosticism was some kind of actual way-station just short of actual unbelief. Most of this was just a matter of letting go of my imagined fixed and anchored identity in theistic ideation.
I don't think you can simply choose to believe or not believe anything. This is so basic to the workings of a human brain that it is not limited to religion, or to any other single aspect of life. A person believes whatever they believe based on their upbringing, direct observations, study leading to logical conclusions, etc. If a person is raised in a religious household, he or she will probably grow up as a believer. Some of these people will change their minds after some kind of study or introspection leading to their minds coming to a logical conclusion. Some innate curiosity lead these people to their study. Some of them find religion lacking and some of them don't. However, the one thing they cannot do is simply decide to accept religion or reject it. The human mind will reach a conclusion, but the human mind can also present whatever position may seem advantageous at the time.
I had a conversation with Rifleman once about my view that there are a lot of atheists that go to church because it makes their families happy. He heartily agreed.
I agree with both you and Rifleman. I know of several people here in Memphis that go, not because they believe, but because they are afraid of what their families or friends would say if they stopped. There are many more atheists/nonbelievers in this country than people expect. Just because a poll says 80% believe or whatever, that number is lower in reality. I'd be willing to bet much lower. Take away peer pressure, family pressure and that number would drop dramatically.
If that's so, it shows why there are so many older folks in church these days - not because they are more likely to believe as older people, but because they grew up in those "ways" while today's young people.. not so much. The idea that people just cannot let go of their traditions may or may not have anything to do with actual "belief" though, so not sure if that is factored into the study.
I think the original study merely took models of which demographic are the most easily coerced and perhaps measured that against outreach results.
I also commented on the millennial thread that these kids are not immune to being gently coerced back mainly by tradition when they start families and infant dedications "need" to be done. Pretty much I I was sucked back in after my rebellious phase.
Perhaps folk find comfort in the group and perhaps they know it is a club of sorts but will never admit it.
I think churches factor in the "rebellious phase" and work on the parents to bring them back later when their wild oats has been sown.
Simple question: Can you "choose" to believe in god? I had this conversation with a woman the other day, she a believer, me not so much. She claims you can just"choose" to believe something, while I believe that you can not. I can not force my brain to think a certain way. I asked her if I should just turn my brain off, and she said "if that's what it takes" What do you guys think?
It is certainly possible to willfully disbelieve.
Having said that, the Bible does state that those that believe in Christ are called by God. In our natural state we cannot choose Christ. He must call us and grant us the grace to be able to believe.
Having said that, the Bible does state that those that believe in Christ are called by God. In our natural state we cannot choose Christ. He must call us and grant us the grace to be able to believe.
Please describe the thought processes that would allow someone to "willfully disbelieve" without leaving a true belief inside the deep recesses of that person's mind. Otherwise, it is not a state of disbelief.
Please describe the thought processes that would allow someone to "willfully disbelieve" without leaving a true belief inside the deep recesses of that person's mind. Otherwise, it is not a state of disbelief.
I believe that most atheists tell themselves that there is no God. But you are correct--deep inside we all realize the truth--there IS a Creator. Their disbelief is certainly very real as long as they persist in it.
I believe that most atheists tell themselves that there is no God. But you are correct--deep inside we all realize the truth--there IS a Creator. Their disbelief is certainly very real as long as they persist in it.
What a coincidence. I was thinking the same exact thing about theists. Imagine that.
I guess it's a matter of semantics. On the one hand, I and others tried very much to hold onto belief, and couldn't. To me this doesn't constitute "willful disbelief".
On the other hand, you would, I'm sure, say that someone who pretends to believe because, say, they fear the social consequences of being themselves, are not really believing. You might even be tempted to characterize them as wolves in the fold. So it's odd to me that Christians wouldn't prefer that unbelievers be un-closeted and declared. I'd think this would at least provide the basis for you to come with logical arguments and evidence to correct the situation. Instead you berate us for "willful disbelief" as if the total explanation for all unbelief is some kind of rebellion phase we are going through instead of a considered opinion.
Perhaps you should ask yourself why you'd jump to that conclusion. Could it be, perhaps, that you don't really have a rational basis to counter a position that we have arrived at for rational reasons rather than for the irrational reason you'd like to allege?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Having said that, the Bible does state that those that believe in Christ are called by God. In our natural state we cannot choose Christ. He must call us and grant us the grace to be able to believe.
This helps me to understand another seemingly puzzling common position with respect to deconverts such as myself, which is that "you were obviously never one of us in the first place." If you believe that god grants grace and calls us, you immediately have the problem of explaining how or why god would "un-call" someone he had previously called, or why the call at least didn't "stick". Assuming that this can never possibly happen, you then assume that there is no such thing as a "former Christian". The weirdness remains, however, that I was always fully accepted as having god's calling on my life, and as a particularly good example of god's "hand" on the life of a promising young man. Maybe I just was among Christians with uniformly bad "discernment". Maybe my pastor shouldn't have put me in charge of the church newspaper or relied on me as the church organist. Maybe Grand Rapids School of Bible and Music didn't properly vet me before accepting me as a student. I dunno.
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