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You said,
"Those of us that adhere to a religious belief tend to have a desire to share our religion with others,
The problem is at what point does our desire/obligation to share become a violation of the rights of others?
No matter how strongly I feel that I must bring others what I believe to save them from eternal punishment, do I have the right to use any means to do so?
Do I have the right to break the laws of a nation to bring my religion to the people of that nation?
Do I have the right to lead the adherents of another belief away from their established beliefs?
Do I have the right to use means that may endanger people or cause a mess they have to clean up?
If my religious belief is outlawed in a nation, am I permitted to use illegal means to bring it into that nation?
Am I permitted to use public facilities to bring others to my religious affiliation?"
__________________
My Answers one by one:
1. Q: The problem is at what point does our desire/obligation to share become a violation of the rights of others?
Before I answer, May I ask since when did it become a violation of another's rights to share with him what's good? But if he sees the good as a violation, it's because of a perception error.
A: Ones desire/obligation to share gospel truth becomes a violation of the right of others when it's done in a way that violates just law or the hearer's dignity or both. I will not shoot you if I shared the gospel with you and you chose not to follow. Neither would you eliminate your sweet little daughter if she for some reason falls away from the path you take. You still love her because love is the nature of your motives and the gospel. Do you remember the prodigal son? Let's not also forget that one may violate another's rights simply by failing to inform him of truth he needs to know.
2. Q: No matter how strongly I feel that I must bring others what I believe to save them from eternal punishment, do I have the right to use any means to do so?
A: Yes as long as the means line up with what I said in no. 1. Your use of the word, "any" does not apply to any way that's wrong. Don't we all have the right to share with others the availability of whatever made a positive difference in our lives? Don't we all have the right to share needed knowledge? Doesn't the one to whom it is shared have the right to know it instead of having it hidden from him? But you wont force it with a holdup at gunpoint, would you?
3. Q: Do I have the right to lead the adherents of another belief away from their established beliefs?
A: Truth takes precedence over any belief that doesn't line up with it whether the belief is established or not. Because we walk the path of life only once, that which fails to line up should be forsaken. Would you want to live out your life according to a falsehood? As for what one should believe, shouldn't it only be what lines up with truth? Please remember what the Bible says about foundations. But again, we cannot force it against his will.
4. Q: Do I have the right to use means that may endanger people or cause a mess they have to clean up?
A: Of course not! No one should use any means that would endanger the hearer of truth that is shared! If I wanted to show you where to find $1 million, do I need to use any means that would endanger your life to do so?
5. Q: If my religious belief is outlawed in a nation, am I permitted to use illegal means to bring it into that nation?
A: That depends on the nature of the law and what the law is meant to protect. Is the law of that land protecting justice or is it protecting someone's unjust intentions. Dr. M. L. King went to jail for breaking unjust segregation laws that were prevalent in the South during his day. After having been whipped by governing officials, the disciples in the Bible preached the name of Jesus even more boldly because they obeyed the mandates of God instead of the mandates of fallible men that were unjustly against the God's mandate.
If I were a preacher sent by God to a foreign land to preach the gospel and that the law of that land forbade it, I would respect the magistrates of that land during my approach. If God truly sent me, He would have a way for me around the laws that would otherwise obstruct my carrying out the assignment.
6. Q: Am I permitted to use public facilities to bring others to my religious affiliation?
A: I trust that you are speaking of gospel truth instead of a mere religious affiliation. Religion without the gospel is nothing regardless the affiliation.
Yes, one should be permitted to use public facilities to proclaim gospel truth as long as he stays with the truth. Why not if truth is meant for all to hear? What man is sovereign above God to oppose the mandate to publicly proclaim truth? It is written: "Be instant in season and out of season." Do you remember Billy Gram's crusades in football stadiums? What about visitations in hospitals by ministers? Please remember the First Amendment phrase, "or (not) prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Although misdeeds should be discouraged and outlawed, the gospel rightfully presented is not a misdeed.
Those of us that adhere to a religious belief tend to have a desire to share our religion with others,
The problem is at what point does our desire/obligation to share become a violation of the rights of others?
No matter how strongly I feel that I must bring others what I believe to save them from eternal punishment, do I have the right to use any means to do so?
Do I have the right to break the laws of a nation to bring my religion to the people of that nation?
Do I have the right to lead the adherents of another belief away from their established beliefs?
Do I have the right to use means that may endanger people or cause a mess they have to clean up?
If my religious belief is outlawed in a nation, am I permitted to use illegal means to bring it into that nation?
Am I permitted to use public facilities to bring others to my religious affiliation?
I am commanded by God to share my faith. I would be wrong to obey man instead of God. Does that mean I should harm, endanger, or hurt others to do so? No.
I believe it is fine to share our beliefs with others just as long as they are okay with you up to a point that they have heard enough or they don't want to hear what you have to say at all. Then one can leave a track and be on their merry way.
I am commanded by God to share my faith. I would be wrong to obey man instead of God.
Hence why many atheists are against religion.
The idea that it would be wrong to obey Man instead of God is essentially saying your religion trumps any law made by Man - including such documents as the U.S. Constitution.
It means that many Christians even today seethe in anger over the fact that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that teachers cannot lead the class in a prayer to a deity - not even a non-specific deity - because it would represent an entanglement of government with religion.
Even so, for over 200 years American public schools freely and knowingly violated the Constitution by turning those schools into Christian indoctrination centers. Not only were prayers to God recited before the beginning of the school day, Bibles were used to teach children how to read. Neither the kids or the parents had any means of recourse should they happen to be atheists or members of a different religion.
In this case, the rights of others mattered little when religious absolutism took hold. A screwball belief in eternal punishment for not joining the right cult or worshiping the right god took precedent over the rights of the individual to decide for him/herself what to believe.
Whenever religious law conflicted with Man's law, we were all expected to choose religious law - or more accurately Biblical law - regardless of our individual beliefs. Thus for over two centuries our public schools were de facto churches for young people.
During the same time, government-run poorhouses were operated based on ugly Puritanical rules and assumptions. Anyone living in a poorhouse was obviously being punished by God. Therefore, these facilities were designed to make people as miserable as possible since it wasn't up to Man to interfere with God's verdict. In this case, interfering meant making God's punishment less severe by allowing poorhouse inmates (yes, they were actually called inmates) to have any comforts or luxuries. It didn't matter if you were disabled or elderly and destitute. If you were in a poorhouse, you were being punished.
Once again we have religion leading government around by the nose - one reason I have always been dead-set against abolishing government-run welfare and handing over all "charity" to the churches. Religion can be downright mean and nasty when it wants to be, and there is always plenty of Biblical verses to justify it.
And so again, today, we have states trying desperately to ban gay marriage - mainly because homosexuality is condemned in the Bible. For those of us who are atheists, non-Christian, or Christian but liberal, we say: "Who the hell cares?" Yet those of a fascistic bent - those who feel they have to obey God and not Man - didn't care about the rights of others. All that concerned them was to make their God's rules superior to all others in the nation; your individual beliefs do not count.
Thus anyone who says they must obey God rather than Man is a danger to freedom, democracy, and liberty. I've said a thousand times that religion is inherently fascistic, authoritarian, totalitarian, and quite often cruel. Thus we have so many stories such as the recent one about a church refusing to bury a woman who fell behind on her tithes. Or an older story involving a mother and daughter who were excommunicated from the Catholic church for aborting a pregnancy caused by being raped by her stepfather (and she was only 8 years-old; the pregnancy put her life in extreme danger). Perhaps the worst one was when Saudi morality police stood guard over a burning school refusing to allow rescue workers to save a dozen girls who were not wearing the proper religious head gear.
All too often we have had to look beyond the Bible to find our morality. We've had to ignore egregious commands like murdering gays, witches, rebellious kids, and anyone disrespecting a priest. Plus, we've had to add our own morality such as abolishing slavery and making sex with children a crime (neither of which is in the Bible).
Your religion may command you to share your religion with others - and in this country you are free to do so. However, such preaching becomes immoral when there is a captive audience. Badgering motorists waiting at traffic lights, for instance, or forcing children to recite prayers at school when attending school is compulsory.
Unfortunately, some Christians feel so strongly about superstitions that others find utterly ridiculous (eternal punishment in Hell, for instance) that these Christians feel justified in using any tactic, trick, and method available to them in order to spread their "good news." They forget that their beliefs are just that - beliefs - and are not proven in any way whatsoever. Calling their beliefs "truth" is disingenuous at best, outright lies at worst.
It is wrong to preach to people who have no desire to listen. While yes, free speech still exists, religion falls into a different category of free speech - namely because of the high emotions and intense friction that can result if a Christian starts spouting off to a Muslim, for example, saying the Muslim is worshiping a false god and believing in a false religion. Atheists, on the other hand, simply don't want to hear it.
But placing God's laws above human laws is only asking for conflict.
This is an awfully old thread, but since people are posting in it again, it's in play. So... I'll play!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Those of us that adhere to a religious belief tend to have a desire to share our religion with others,
The problem is at what point does our desire/obligation to share become a violation of the rights of others?
As a general rule of thumb, I would say at the point where they ask you to stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
No matter how strongly I feel that I must bring others what I believe to save them from eternal punishment, do I have the right to use any means to do so?
Some of the questions are worded quite broadly, so that makes it difficult to give unambiguous answers. If the question is worded this way, I'd have to answer "no." You can reason with them, but you can't kidnap them or point a gun at their head. Somewhere between those two extremes is a line that you should not cross, but exactly where that line is drawn is a matter that each of us have to settle for ourselves, depending upon the circumstances and our individual beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Do I have the right to break the laws of a nation to bring my religion to the people of that nation?
I assume you mean a moral right, because obviously you don't have the legal right. And in that context, yes - I believe you do have the moral right to speak your message to those who you think need to hear it, if you have the courage to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Do I have the right to lead the adherents of another belief away from their established beliefs?
Absolutely. In fact, if you truly believe in your faith, I could argue that you have an obligation to try to lead them to what you think is the better path.
But the key word here is "lead" - if they don't want to follow, then you have to respect their beliefs and drop it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Do I have the right to use means that may endanger people or cause a mess they have to clean up?
This one seems a little broad... endanger whom? The people to whom you're preaching? Bystanders? What sort of danger, and what sort of mess?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
If my religious belief is outlawed in a nation, am I permitted to use illegal means to bring it into that nation?
Legally? Obviously not, but morally? Yes. See above...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Am I permitted to use public facilities to bring others to my religious affiliation?
Like sidewalks, streetcorners, that sort of thing? I don't see why not. I'll admit that I find it a little annoying to have to navigate around sidewalk evangelists who are blocking my path (especially living in the middle of the Bible Belt, as I do), but a public sidewalk is a public sidewalk. They have as much right to stand there barking at me as I do to be walking past them. It's part of the risk I take in going out in public in a free country.
But placing God's laws above human laws is only asking for conflict.
I have to disagree with you on this one.
A free society can afford a little conflict every now and then, and I think this is an area where we have to expect some from time to time. I don't agree with the message that Christians preach, and in fact I find it abhorrent. But it's something in which they deeply believe, and even though I am sure they're wrong, I understand that in the context of their belief system, they are morally bound to spread that message - that they consider it a duty, an obligation they have no choice but to honor. I don't agree with that message, but if it's that important to them, I'm more than willing to trade a good-sized chunk of my constitutional "freedom not be bothered" for their freedom to spread their word.
Whom are you taking instruction from ?
Whom are you being obedient to ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by minidiaz
since religious beliefs are based on opinion contingent on an assumption and not objective fact...it would be rude to expect ones personal beliefs are to be accepted over the others individual belief system. basically when assuming you have the answer, for yourself, you are thinking everyone else doesn't which is why you would want to share it...and personally that just comes off as being arrogant..not very appealing and quite self defeating.
No matter who believes they have the truth from
God . . . they are deluded. They have something from ancient ignorant men and they CHOOSE to believe what they recorded is from God. No matter how convinced they are that they have The Truth . . . they have nothing but the writings of ignorant primitive men. They may or may not have Truth in whatever they believe . . . but they certainly can NOT claim they have the truth FROM God. Given this abominable state of affairs concerning beliefs about God . . . ANYONE promoting their Truth about God as the only and real truth has serious issues with reality.
Only comparatively recently in history has "spreading" your "religious beliefs" (if we're talking Christianity, and I'm guessing we are) gone from torture and murder, to simple blacklisting from jobs and communities, to today, being a (and this I do thank God for) relatively harmless pain in the azz at somebody's front door or randomly on the subway, in a grocery store, etc., etc.
The way it's done today, no, I wouldn't say it's immoral, nor is it immoral for someone to cut you off with a brief "shut up" or to shut the door in your face in mid-proselytizing.
Sorry, pushiness worked for Christianity much better when you were allowed to shove red-hot pokers into people and kill off their families and and rape their helpless ill grandmas under the guise of "searching for devil's marks" and steal their goods. I know it takes some getting used to but today, lacking those things, no, it is no longer "immoral," technically, to "spread" your beliefs, nor, sadly for Christianity, is it quite so effective (go figure). Just keep them out of MY children's schools and out of MY laws (and rights) and we'll be fine.
I am commanded by God to share my faith. I would be wrong to obey man instead of God. Does that mean I should harm, endanger, or hurt others to do so? No.
I thought your God (or at least his messenger) also "commanded" you to cast off worldly things. What are you doing on a computer?
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