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I really want to approach this topic as fairly as possible, keeping in mind that Christianity really does not have much respect for female Moderator cut: edit human beings. But, seriously? Skim some of these sites and have a read or two. I've not seen much challenging this damaging nonsense on the web, and honestly, I am trying to bite my tongue (fingers?) as I type this to remain civil. It seems incomprehensible that anyone would advise someone else to remain in a wretched set of circumstances (because GOD), but peep the general theme:
If the man is a violent alcoholic...the woman is to stay and be a good submissive doormat.
If the woman does not want sex with the man, she is to do it anyway, because GOD.
Eff your identity Beeotch. Because GOD.
Where is the personal accountability both ways? Where is the respect for the woman? Do these men respect themselves if they need to stomp on their woman (wife) whom they are supposed to love? Where is the accounting for her feelings and her validity as a human being? Most of all, why do these women put up with this? I can't even wrap my head around this. I totally, TOTALLY get that this is THEIR right to believe as they do. I have no beef with that. The only beef I have, is people advocating the mistreatment of other sentient beings. I don't care if it's the Unicorn Wilderness Cult perpetuating it, or whatever. Why is this allowed in 2013 in 'civilized' society? No one has to answer all of my rhetorical queries, I just...can't.
I would say the same thing if men were being denigrated by women in these "advice" columns. People should not use any dogma to mistreat other people. Period. But again, here it is.
Why.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-26-2013 at 06:59 AM..
Reason: edited insulting reference
These are largely conservative / literalist / fundamentalist sites. You will find more balanced and less unreasonable ideology among liberal Christians, but the fact remains that Christianity evolved from a bronze-age patriarchal society's god-concepts and has a lot of baggage along those lines.
The codification of the presentation of the ideas behind these sites probably comes from the 1970s with books like Marabel Morgan's The Total Woman. I encountered offshoots of this when I was contemplating divorce in the early 90's, there is a similar ethos applied to men and women alike that divorce is taboo, not to even be considered, and even when you make a "wrong" choice in a mate, God makes it "right" (if you have enough faith and try hard enough). My first wife was certifiably bats__t crazy (Paranoid Schizophrenia and Borderline Personality Disorder) and yet I had children with her and stuck by her for 15 miserable, and if I may say so, god-forsaken years, on the basis of evangelical divorce taboos and magical thinking about the "institution" of marriage.
Fundamentalism, in short, generates grinding, unremitting misery for women and men alike, by trying to force-fit reality into predetermined boxes created 2,000 years ago and barnacled with 2,000 years of subsequent interpretations and dogmas.
To your point more directly: Fundamentalist family life is predicated on a 1950's sitcom ideal. A working husband, stay-at-home homemaker / mother wife, happy children, everything smooth and pleasant and predictable. Everyone has a defined role: breadwinner for the man, "helpmeet" for the woman, which means, enthusiastically and admiringly support all that the man seeks to do in life. Departure from this is rebellion of god's family order. Departure from this also calls into question the sufficiency of god's grace, another no-no.
Some fundamentalists (relatively milder ones) have allowed this to be modified somewhat in the face of modern realities, particularly the economic necessity in most cases of a two wage-earner family. Women are now allowed to work, even professionally, and to get college degrees other than nursing and other approved "female" work roles but only if they continue to fully support all the above-mentioned roles and the primacy of the man's ambitions and dreams.
My guess is that in many fundie households only the outer appearance holds and women are permitted more latitude than that, but only at the behest of a semi-enlightened husband.
A lot of what goes on in religion is doing the right things for entirely the wrong reasons, BTW ... not everything in the fundamentalist zeitgeist is unsavory. I don't think a divorce-free, drama-free marriage is an ignoble ideal, it's just that they have seemingly no idea how to go about it. Or at least no more idea than anyone else, which would explain why divorce rates aren't much different inside vs outside Christianity.
To be fair to Christians, many other fundamentalist religions are also incredibly sexist. It's almost as if the men that invented these religions and wrote these holy books wanted to solidify and maintain the current power structure.
I will couch my response in stating that I did not read the links provided before responding. I have read many others which I believe to be similar in tone.
There is a very fine line between having a "difficult" relationship and having an abusive relationship. No one should remain in a situation where they are being physically abused (i.e. beaten). Anyone who abuses a woman (or child or puppy), in this fashion is sick and criminal and needs professional help. That being said, having a "difficult" relationship with someone does not necessarily mean that they are being beaten.
My philosophy is that a woman has 90 percent over the control of the relationship by the way she interacts with her family and specifically her husband. If there is a problem in the relationship, much of the time it is because of the actions of the woman. Now, of course, there are alcoholic men, drug abusing men, emotionally and psychologically sick men who need help and those types of situations has *nothing* to do with the woman. But I would say, in many, many, many cases marriages could be saved and improved dramatically if women simply treated their husbands in the *exact* same way they did when they were dating. It's just that simple.
Women, by and large, treat men very badly. Very, very badly. I see it every day and most likely so do the people that are reading this. For whatever reason (ostensibly due to feminism), women have become very cold and very hard and very uncaring towards their husbands.
I think that the gist of most of these sites simply hope to help women understand this and return to a type of relationship that will make everyone happy.
Women, by and large, treat men very badly. Very, very badly. I see it every day and most likely so do the people that are reading this. For whatever reason (ostensibly due to feminism), women have become very cold and very hard and very uncaring towards their husbands.
I think that the gist of most of these sites simply hope to help women understand this and return to a type of relationship that will make everyone happy.
These are largely conservative / literalist / fundamentalist sites. You will find more balanced and less unreasonable ideology among liberal Christians, but the fact remains that Christianity evolved from a bronze-age patriarchal society's god-concepts and has a lot of baggage along those lines.
The codification of the presentation of the ideas behind these sites probably comes from the 1970s with books like Marabel Morgan's The Total Woman. I encountered offshoots of this when I was contemplating divorce in the early 90's, there is a similar ethos applied to men and women alike that divorce is taboo, not to even be considered, and even when you make a "wrong" choice in a mate, God makes it "right" (if you have enough faith and try hard enough). My first wife was certifiably bats__t crazy (Paranoid Schizophrenia and Borderline Personality Disorder) and yet I had children with her and stuck by her for 15 miserable, and if I may say so, god-forsaken years, on the basis of evangelical divorce taboos and magical thinking about the "institution" of marriage.
Fundamentalism, in short, generates grinding, unremitting misery for women and men alike, by trying to force-fit reality into predetermined boxes created 2,000 years ago and barnacled with 2,000 years of subsequent interpretations and dogmas.
To your point more directly: Fundamentalist family life is predicated on a 1950's sitcom ideal. A working husband, stay-at-home homemaker / mother wife, happy children, everything smooth and pleasant and predictable. Everyone has a defined role: breadwinner for the man, "helpmeet" for the woman, which means, enthusiastically and admiringly support all that the man seeks to do in life. Departure from this is rebellion of god's family order. Departure from this also calls into question the sufficiency of god's grace, another no-no.
Some fundamentalists (relatively milder ones) have allowed this to be modified somewhat in the face of modern realities, particularly the economic necessity in most cases of a two wage-earner family. Women are now allowed to work, even professionally, and to get college degrees other than nursing and other approved "female" work roles but only if they continue to fully support all the above-mentioned roles and the primacy of the man's ambitions and dreams.
My guess is that in many fundie households only the outer appearance holds and women are permitted more latitude than that, but only at the behest of a semi-enlightened husband.
A lot of what goes on in religion is doing the right things for entirely the wrong reasons, BTW ... not everything in the fundamentalist zeitgeist is unsavory. I don't think a divorce-free, drama-free marriage is an ignoble ideal, it's just that they have seemingly no idea how to go about it. Or at least no more idea than anyone else, which would explain why divorce rates aren't much different inside vs outside Christianity.
Wow man, you seem to have their drivel down to a curriculum. My hat is off to you sir. I think anyone could be down for a drama free marriage, but one party emotionally (and or physically) beating the other down does not seem conducive to a stable and happy relationship. I despise that word 'helpmeet' and according to spell check this is not even a damn word...except to Christians. A human is a human. I wonder when we will treat each other accordingly. I hate this world sometimes.
I will couch my response in stating that I did not read the links provided before responding. I have read many others which I believe to be similar in tone.
There is a very fine line between having a "difficult" relationship and having an abusive relationship. No one should remain in a situation where they are being physically abused (i.e. beaten). Anyone who abuses a woman (or child or puppy), in this fashion is sick and criminal and needs professional help. That being said, having a "difficult" relationship with someone does not necessarily mean that they are being beaten.
My philosophy is that a woman has 90 percent over the control of the relationship by the way she interacts with her family and specifically her husband. If there is a problem in the relationship, much of the time it is because of the actions of the woman. Now, of course, there are alcoholic men, drug abusing men, emotionally and psychologically sick men who need help and those types of situations has *nothing* to do with the woman. But I would say, in many, many, many cases marriages could be saved and improved dramatically if women simply treated their husbands in the *exact* same way they did when they were dating. It's just that simple.
Women, by and large, treat men very badly. Very, very badly. I see it every day and most likely so do the people that are reading this. For whatever reason (ostensibly due to feminism), women have become very cold and very hard and very uncaring towards their husbands.
I think that the gist of most of these sites simply hope to help women understand this and return to a type of relationship that will make everyone happy.
20yrsinBranson
Let's not muddy the waters, homey. That lady's story in the first link? She WAS being abused, mentally and emotionally! In fact...ALL of these links lead you to some pretty hairy tales of marital hell, and the resounding voices from the Christian marriage advisors? "Stay and be a good trained beeotch! Gawd said so, ho! Now, get to bending over for sex even if you don't want to and if he is an alcoholic ogre...well, tsk, tsk. Gawd!!"
People treat people very, very badly from what I have seen. Maybe you live someplace where only women do foul things to helpless men. Where is that place?
If there is a problem in the relationship, much of the time it is because of the actions of the woman. Now, of course, there are alcoholic men, drug abusing men, emotionally and psychologically sick men who need help and those types of situations has *nothing* to do with the woman. But I would say, in many, many, many cases marriages could be saved and improved dramatically if women simply treated their husbands in the *exact* same way they did when they were dating. It's just that simple.
Women, by and large, treat men very badly. Very, very badly. I see it every day and most likely so do the people that are reading this. For whatever reason (ostensibly due to feminism), women have become very cold and very hard and very uncaring towards their husbands.
I think that the gist of most of these sites simply hope to help women understand this and return to a type of relationship that will make everyone happy.
20yrsinBranson
I'm nearly speechless after reading that. Nearly.
I just can't believe anyone who is seemingly intelligent would actually say that. Wow...
As an atheist, blatant sexism and the male dominated circle jerk is one of the biggest reasons I dislike conservative/fundamentalists believers. What the hell is broken inside of someone's brain for them to actually believe some of the things that get written on these sites?
Last edited by Ohio Hello; 11-25-2013 at 09:16 PM..
To be fair to Christians, many other fundamentalist religions are also incredibly sexist. It's almost as if the men that invented these religions and wrote these holy books wanted to solidify and maintain the current power structure.
I wonder how the course of human evolution would have went, and what religions our ancestors would have concocted if human females were neck and neck physically with men. Here is what it all boils down to..."Me bigger, ME RULE and YOU SERVE!!" If we were like sentient tigers...this would not be. At the most in that case, I think we'd be like the Na'vi, worshiping trees and what not. None this brutality that they call sacredness. How wretched. I truly spit in the general direction of these people.
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