Why Everyone Should Read the Book of Job (myth, Israel, quotes)
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Well, I don't know what to tell you then. It's considered one of the most profound philosophical books ever written - by Atheists, mostly! Whether you have actually read it and can come to the conclusion you have through experience - I don't know. I don't know many people who have really sat down to read the book who have come away from it saying "well, that was a waste of time". No. They generally find themselves returning to the book, if not as a great work of literature then for some of the profound questions which arise from it. Anyone who has connections to the Holocaust have found it a most illuminating book, and have had to revise their faith (if they retain it) accordingly. At any rate, the human condition is examined very well in the book. Please don't mistake me for some religious nut, either - I am far from that.
And I must apologize for my brief initial post - I think it's given the wrong impression that the ONLY thing an Atheist can take away from the book is that God acts in contradictory ways, or whatever. There is much more to be had in the book, I was just pressed for time - which I am usually not. Perhaps over the course of the thread, its further value can be seen. Or not.
I think the problem is; a lot of people like me are not in any manner moved by the Bible's "spirituality", for lack of a better word. Another words; if I first saw these Bible passages written in a lost notebook sitting on a bus stop bench, apparently written by a contemporary person, would I think them profound and moving? Generally the answer is no.
I think the problem is; a lot of people like me are not in any manner moved by the Bible's "spirituality", for lack of a better word. Another words; if I first saw these Bible passages written in a lost notebook sitting on a bus stop bench, apparently written by a contemporary person, would I think them profound and moving? Generally the answer is no.
Hmm... I don't think "spirituality" is a good term here for the Book of Job. It is a subversive book that never should have made it into the canon of the Hebrew Bible, technically. It truly is a miracle that it did so! Any book that attacks everything that has come before is truly a dangerous book to have around. It was so subversive that the various ancient versions did much to soften its attack on traditional wisdom literature and religion in general. The aftereffects of this are still felt today in traditional interpretations of Job as some sort of paragon of faith and patience.
I think the human condition and the problem of innocent suffering transcends ideas of spirituality, personally. Of course - there can be a spiritual aspect to it, especially when people put their faith in a God which they assume will do what is right, but this is not the core of the problem really.
I think many people approach the Bible with this idea that it is nothing more than a "book" of religion. It is most definitely not such a thing solely (save for the Psalms, perhaps). This preconceived notion colors many people's views and prevents them from ever picking it up as a source of great literature and philosophy. This is a shame - as I frequently bemoan. Truly, it has gotten a bad rap over the years from its more zealous followers. I do not know if you're a fan of literature, but I am. I enjoy reading the Epic of Gilgamesh and its approach to the human condition (there is no afterlife, we are humans - and humans are mortal) - and this is a book far predating any Biblical work. I enjoy reading the various Egyptian poems of the "Righteous Sufferer" genre, as well as other works. Likewise, whether you be spiritual or not, there is in the Hebrew Bible much great literature to enjoy. How a "book" is seen and misused today should not prevent us from reading a work that is thousands of years old and yet rings true with us even today. A mark of a great work, in my opinion, is that it can continue speaking to us many years after its original audience has perished. This is why I play classical music - it still has the ability to speak to me. I try not to let the composer's personal beliefs and motivations for composing prevent me from enjoying the art that it is. The truth of the matter is, that even great works such as Moby Dick are infused with biblical allusions that inform the work as a whole and if knowledge of such Biblical allusions are lacking, then so will one's appreciation of the work. As members of Western Civilization, almost our entire culture is permeated with these snippets from the past. But the great writers and composers knew the power of the work, and used it accordingly - whether they believed in it or not. Moby Dick, in fact, is almost impossible to truly understand with the Book of Job.
Anyways, its literary quality far outstrips any reservations that it is a spiritual book, in my opinion. If you read through it, and really take the time to do so thoroughly, and you still feel as if it had the same value as someone's lost notebook: fair enough. But I do think it's difficult to come to such a conclusion without ever having spent any time with it. So, are you interested in the great literary works of our Western Civilization?
Perhaps we should take the contradictory and confusing advice of a certain proverb?
Do not answer a fool in his own foolish terms,
Lest you put yourself on his level.
Answer a fool in his own foolish terms
So he will not think himself wise.
(Proverbs 26:4-5, AB Scott)
Say, whaaaat? Which one do I do?!
I have always had a knack for understanding others, perhaps what was meant and lost in translation was : "don't answer a fool in his terms and risk getting on his level, instead answer a fool on his terms and make him realize the fool he is (since he can understand that you are wiser and know more of what he himself is supposed to know and understand)."
I have always had a knack for understanding others, perhaps what was meant and lost in translation was : "don't answer a fool in his terms and risk getting on his level, instead answer a fool on his terms and make him realize the fool he is (since he can understand that you are wiser and know more of what he himself is supposed to know and understand)."
I have always had a knack for understanding others, perhaps what was meant and lost in translation was : "don't answer a fool in his terms and risk getting on his level, instead answer a fool on his terms and make him realize the fool he is (since he can understand that you are wiser and know more of what he himself is supposed to know and understand)."
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02
Yes, that is how I would take it.
Very good point! It is certainly possible to understand the proverbs this way - if they are meant to be taken together, rather than contrasting proverbs.
It is also possible that in certain situations, one proverb will apply, while the other will not.
I've been working through a commentary on Qoheleth (Ecclesiastes) in the Anchor Bible series by C. L. Seow and he mentions this proverb while writing about Ecclesiastes 1:15.
"What is made crooked cannot be straightened;
what is lacking cannot be counted."
(Ecclesiastes 1:15, AB Seow)
The context of the proverb is in reference to the state of the world as God has designed it: the world may be unjust and horrible, but one cannot change this God-ordained state of affairs. He points out that previous wisdom traditions have a similar, but contrasting, proverb in reference to teaching students or sons from The Instruction of Anii:
The crooked stick left on the ground,
With sun and shade attacking it,
If the carpenter takes it, he straightens it,
Makes of it a noble's staff,
And a straight stick makes a collar.
(The Instruction of Any: Epilogue, COS p. 114, Lichtheim)
The son has been quite recalcitrant to the father's instructions, so the father points out that it is possible to "straighten" the bad student out. Qoheleth uses this same proverb, but in an entirely different way - a contrasting and perhaps subversive one from what had been common in traditional wisdom literature. In relation to the Book of Job, Qoheleth basically says that the world is unjust and that's just too bad. You cannot do anything about it. Job, on the other hand, wants to do something about it. He is willing to butt heads with God and demand justice. He does not receive it in the end, but at least he tried. Qoheleth is more world-weary and realizes that one cannot wrestle with God and win - one must only learn to endure.
The proverb/s from the Book of Proverbs could possibly be seen in the same contrasting and subversive light. Perhaps one should NOT answer a fool according to his own folly, but perhaps one SHOULD answer a fool according to his own folly sometimes. Perhaps it depends on the situation. Like I said earlier, it would also depend on whether one is to take it as one large proverb, or as two proverbs.
With that said - I do like your interpretation as well, and it definitely has possibilities. The proverb seems almost like a Zen saying, or something Master Yoda would say.
Whoppers, you missed a critical source and have come to entirely the wrong conclusions on why Iyor (Job in English) lived such a difficult life. His difficulties were mida kenega mida (measure for measure). The Jewish Biblical Midrashim cover the significance in detail, and we Jews know that Job was being punished. Were you aware that Job, along with Billam and Yisro, were advisors to Paro in Mitzrayim (ancient Egypt) during Moses lifetime? And that Paro famously (perhaps the first to ever ask this question) asked what to do about the "Jewish problem?" His three advisors gave radically different answers. Yisro, who would later become Moses' father in law, said to free the Jews. He was rewarded with descendants that sat at the head of the Jewish Sanhedrin. Billam said to kill the first born males. And Job remained silent. So a critical questions begs: Why does Billam have such a wonderful life, with great influence, wealth and power. Even his death (by sword) was relatively quick and painless. And yet Job who remained silent, lives a lifetime of great suffering?
Rav Chaim Shmuel Levetz answered that Billam took his rewards in Olam Hazeh (this physical world). But he was cut off from Olam Haba (the world to come). That's like passing up a million dollar lottery ticket because what you really wanted was a 70 cent candy bar. Iyor (Job) suffered greatly, measure for measure, in Olam Hazeh (this world) in order to repent for his silence when Paro wanted to destroy the Jews. Iyor corrected realized that his suffering on this earth would demonstrate his worthiness to join Olam Haba until Hashem restores souls to dead bodies.
If course I've learned in this forum that the Chrstians somehow grafted Jesus into this story (which of course took place 1300 years before Jesus was born), so I guess anybody can say anything...
Whoppers, you missed a critical source and have come to entirely the wrong conclusions on why Iyor (Job in English) lived such a difficult life. His difficulties were mida kenega mida (measure for measure). The Jewish Biblical Midrashim cover the significance in detail, and we Jews know that Job was being punished. ....
.....If course I've learned in this forum that the Chrstians somehow grafted Jesus into this story (which of course took place 1300 years before Jesus was born), so I guess anybody can say anything...
I will assume you made a simple spelling mistake in your transliteration of 'Iyyôḇ, with your lack of the dagesh forte'd yod and your substitution of resh for bet. I will give you the benefit of the doubt in this case (and I hope I'm correct heh heh!).
Yes, you are correct - anyone can add anything to the story to make it more palatable, whether it be Christian Exegetes or the great Midrashic Rabbis.
For example, where Christian Exegetes see Christ is where they have entirely missed the significance AND meaning of what a gô'el is - the "redeeming kinsman" in 19:23-26.
O that my words were written,
Were engraved on a stela,
With iron stylus and lead,
Carved in rock forever.
I know my vindicator (gô'el) lives,
A guarantor upon the dust will stand;
Even after my skin is flayed,
Without my flesh I shall see God.
(Job 19:23-26, AB Pope)
As I'm sure you're aware, the gô'el was the "redeeming kinsman" who would settle the debts and obligations a kinsman would accrue - whether that was from being bonded into slavery, unable to pay, marrying a childless widow, etc. In the story of Ruth, Boaz was the gô'el of Naomi - granting her a child via Levirate Marriage via Ruth. In the context of Job, Job wishes that his accusations against God were to be written down on a surface that would outlive himself, and thus someday acquit him of the charges against him with the help of a gô'el. This is perhaps alluded to in another passage earlier in the book, when Job vainly wishes for an umpire between himself and God in court.
The Midrashic interpretation you mentioned above is - in my opinion - just as bad as the Christian one, and even more apologetic to the point of being able to be classed with the accusations of Job's friends. I'm not sure whether you have actually studied the Book of Job, but the friends were dead wrong. Job WAS blameless and upgright, as YHWH himself proclaimed several times in the first several chapters. His words are said to be correct, while his friends were said to be wrong - in their attempt to defend God from Job's very true accusations. See the final chapter and YHWH's anger at the "friends" attempts to apologize for God.
The interpretation you offer above is not found in the Book of Job and goes exactly contrary to it. It is too apologetic for my tastes, however interesting it may be (and fanciful), and completely ignores the very important issue that makes or breaks the book: that Job was blameless and upright! Without this crucial data, then the entire book has no meaning whatsoever. If Job is being punished because he sinned, then the entire poetic dialogue can be thrown out (the friends were correct, even though we know they were wrong) and YHWH was a liar (even though that smacks of blasphemy, don't you think?). No - Job is in a right relationship with God, and it is for this VERY reason that he is being punished, not because of some previous sin he has committed. This notion is firmly and definitively denied in the text of the book.
It's good to hear from you, Flipflop - but surely you see how that Midrash goes contrary to the entire meaning of the book? In the end, it's a much later interpretation that is extremely fanciful in placing Job in some situation concerning the "Jewish Problem" and his supposed silence. If we wished to delve into such matters of the history of interpretation, we certainly could - but I don't think some of the interpretations will help us much with the matter, without destroying the original text of the book.
Very good point! It is certainly possible to understand the proverbs this way - if they are meant to be taken together, rather than contrasting proverbs.
It is also possible that in certain situations, one proverb will apply, while the other will not.
I've been working through a commentary on Qoheleth (Ecclesiastes) in the Anchor Bible series by C. L. Seow and he mentions this proverb while writing about Ecclesiastes 1:15.
"What is made crooked cannot be straightened;
what is lacking cannot be counted."
(Ecclesiastes 1:15, AB Seow)
The context of the proverb is in reference to the state of the world as God has designed it: the world may be unjust and horrible, but one cannot change this God-ordained state of affairs. He points out that previous wisdom traditions have a similar, but contrasting, proverb in reference to teaching students or sons from The Instruction of Anii:
The crooked stick left on the ground,
With sun and shade attacking it,
If the carpenter takes it, he straightens it,
Makes of it a noble's staff,
And a straight stick makes a collar.
(The Instruction of Any: Epilogue, COS p. 114, Lichtheim)
The son has been quite recalcitrant to the father's instructions, so the father points out that it is possible to "straighten" the bad student out. Qoheleth uses this same proverb, but in an entirely different way - a contrasting and perhaps subversive one from what had been common in traditional wisdom literature. In relation to the Book of Job, Qoheleth basically says that the world is unjust and that's just too bad. You cannot do anything about it. Job, on the other hand, wants to do something about it. He is willing to butt heads with God and demand justice. He does not receive it in the end, but at least he tried. Qoheleth is more world-weary and realizes that one cannot wrestle with God and win - one must only learn to endure.
The proverb/s from the Book of Proverbs could possibly be seen in the same contrasting and subversive light. Perhaps one should NOT answer a fool according to his own folly, but perhaps one SHOULD answer a fool according to his own folly sometimes. Perhaps it depends on the situation. Like I said earlier, it would also depend on whether one is to take it as one large proverb, or as two proverbs.
With that said - I do like your interpretation as well, and it definitely has possibilities. The proverb seems almost like a Zen saying, or something Master Yoda would say.
Yes, human wisdom and ideas.
The first (Paul of Tarsus?)is trying to say that when a person tries to straighten something that has become bent, they risk breaking it. and that when they count their things, they can't count the faulty ones along with the good-enough.
The second (an ancient Egyptian?)almost corrects the first, saying that a skilled person can actually straighten things without breaking them, and with skill do things that those without skill might have thought couldn't be done. And in such a way, lesser things can be skillfully crafted into better things.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 12-08-2013 at 01:19 PM..
Whoppers, you missed a critical source and have come to entirely the wrong conclusions on why Iyor (Job in English) lived such a difficult life. His difficulties were mida kenega mida (measure for measure). The Jewish Biblical Midrashim cover the significance in detail, and we Jews know that Job was being punished. Were you aware that Job, along with Billam and Yisro, were advisors to Paro in Mitzrayim (ancient Egypt) during Moses lifetime? And that Paro famously (perhaps the first to ever ask this question) asked what to do about the "Jewish problem?" His three advisors gave radically different answers. Yisro, who would later become Moses' father in law, said to free the Jews. He was rewarded with descendants that sat at the head of the Jewish Sanhedrin. Billam said to kill the first born males. And Job remained silent. So a critical questions begs: Why does Billam have such a wonderful life, with great influence, wealth and power. Even his death (by sword) was relatively quick and painless. And yet Job who remained silent, lives a lifetime of great suffering?
Rav Chaim Shmuel Levetz answered that Billam took his rewards in Olam Hazeh (this physical world). But he was cut off from Olam Haba (the world to come). That's like passing up a million dollar lottery ticket because what you really wanted was a 70 cent candy bar. Iyor (Job) suffered greatly, measure for measure, in Olam Hazeh (this world) in order to repent for his silence when Paro wanted to destroy the Jews. Iyor corrected realized that his suffering on this earth would demonstrate his worthiness to join Olam Haba until Hashem restores souls to dead bodies.
If course I've learned in this forum that the Chrstians somehow grafted Jesus into this story (which of course took place 1300 years before Jesus was born), so I guess anybody can say anything...
When did they graft Yeshua into that story and how?...
And I pointed out to you that I said no thank you in relation to the idea that reading Job would prove that the various writings of the bible present different and conflicting views of the nature of God. I'm already fully aware of that, so don't need to read Job to prove it to me.
As to reading Job again, I don't NEED to. Why would I? Do you think the only way you can learn about God, or even the best way, is by reading the book of Job?
Sigh...You just do not understand...
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Which one do I do?!
