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Old 12-04-2013, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Tell me why Sam Harris has no right to judge god and you do...You do it all the time...No matter what atrocious acts your god commits, you judge him as good...Tell me who gave you license to do that, but withheld that license from anyone who does not judge god as good?
Yep! It get back to the Euthyprho Dilemma - it just begs the question. Of course they don't see it.


 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
24,260 posts, read 14,165,148 times
Reputation: 9895
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexcanter View Post
good try, acting within reason is the absolute, not the always changing circumstance's we are subjected to every day . its a good pointer because it unveils many things in many ways. Timely as well as I see these essays below have arrived which look interesting for later this evening.
"Within reason". Who's reason? Mine? yours? the guy down the street? Some people find it reasonable to lock children in cages and starve them. I don't find that reasonable. Do you?

Is "within reason" a voted on thing?

Also "within reason" is not absolute, as in absolute morality. It adds exceptions, and absolutes do not allow for exceptions.
 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I'm not condemning God based on a system of morality that is a human invention.

The best Sam Harris (or you) can do is say that based on your system of morality, you don't like what God does, or has done. You can't claim to be authoritative over anyone else--since you made up your system of morality based on your own feelings.
Which is what you do as well - they are after all your moral sentiments. Now tell me how God's morality is not subjective seeing that it is His morality. You are just adopting it (or I would say projecting your own subjective feelings) as if it is objective.

Furthermore you did not answer the question - again. See you have to appeal to reasons why what God commands as good is good and in so doing need a standard or method outside of God to do so otherwise you are ignorantly just slaving away for an authority - might makes right. If you have reasons or even if God has reasons why something is wrong then we can jettison God and stick to the reasons.
 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:29 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,136,666 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexcanter View Post
thats right and if someone wants another style of god theres no problem and a very handy option available. Its a matter of marketing, a good salesman presents the problem in question and provides options to the customer,

that way the customer can take all the credit for being the intelligent one who made the decision all on his own and take all the applause for the good outcome. sales 101.
And that has what to do with the topic of morality?

Fact is, you've created a "god" for yourself (no god) and you have bought into the Sam Harris marketing gimmick. He's an ear-tickler, telling you what you want to hear, and atheists just lap it up.
 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,513 posts, read 37,057,177 times
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Why you can never get a creationist to admit he is wrong........Literal creationists have suffered a terrible education - and a dishonest one. Yes, they are wrong, but telling them as much only actually strengthens their belief in their own error!

Here is a sampling of the techniques used in creationist arguments. You will often see a large number of these techniques used in one presentation. A really gifted creationist can often combine two or three of these techniques in a single paragraph. Other Creationist Arguments
 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:31 PM
 
63,568 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I'm not condemning God based on a system of morality that is a human invention.
The best Sam Harris (or you) can do is say that based on your system of morality, you don't like what God does, or has done. You can't claim to be authoritative over anyone else--since you made up your system of morality based on your own feelings.
Still ducking and dodging, Vizio. I am not basing my morality on my own feelings. I am basing it on Jesus Christ . . . NOT the savage and barbaric "morality" of our ignorant primitive ancestors. What is your excuse for abandoning Christ for the savage morality of our ancestors?
 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:33 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,136,666 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Which is what you do as well - they are after all your moral sentiments. Now tell me how God's morality is not subjective seeing that it is His morality. You are just adopting it (or I would say projecting your own subjective feelings) as if it is objective.

Furthermore you did not answer the question - again. See you have to appeal to reasons why what God commands as good is good and in so doing need a standard or method outside of God to do so otherwise you are ignorantly just slaving away for an authority - might makes right. If you have reasons or even if God has reasons why something is wrong then we can jettison God and stick to the reasons.
God is the creator of the universe. He is on a level above you and me--he created us. He defines "good" and "evil". You can call it subjective--in that he decided. It's objective from our perspective, in that none of us can alter his definition of morality. It applies equally to all of us.
 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,825 posts, read 13,361,179 times
Reputation: 9822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I'm not condemning God based on a system of morality that is a human invention.

The best Sam Harris (or you) can do is say that based on your system of morality, you don't like what God does, or has done. You can't claim to be authoritative over anyone else--since you made up your system of morality based on your own feelings.
You subscribe to a made up system of morality based on your feeling that you like it or find it intuitive.

By your logic, you have no more right to commend God than you do to condemn him. You are judging god, just not negatively.

That is the basic problem with the whole system of Christianity (and many other religions). God gets only credit for what goes right. Man gets only credit for what goes wrong. Or some proxy like Satan, who, after all, can't operate unless man "gives place" to him (or god allows it).

So it's okay for me to judge god to be good, but not okay to judge him to be bad. Therefore, in effect, I don't get to judge god, period. I just blindly accept what he does as good. Is that about the size of it?

If so, then what is the basis for worship? I can't evaluate god objectively and then give him the true worship he craves and needs. I only have the option to credit him with 100% wholesome goodness no matter what happens in my observable world or how discordant scripture is with reality. Such credit is meaningless because it has no basis other than simply reflecting god's own opinion of himself. Given that, how does he get any gratification out of such "worship"?

True praise says, "you're great because you kept your word and bestowed your grace", etc. Fake praise says, "you're great because you said you're great and I'm afraid you'll burn me in hell forever if I tell you what I really think (even if it's just, 'I don't know' or 'I don't believe in you')".
 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:36 PM
 
650 posts, read 512,782 times
Reputation: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
And that has what to do with the topic of morality?

Fact is, you've created a "god" for yourself (no god) and you have bought into the Sam Harris marketing gimmick. He's an ear-tickler, telling you what you want to hear, and atheists just lap it up.
you must be mixing me up with someone else.

read this thread , if you still would like to maintain above, I will need a full explanation.
 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:40 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,136,666 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
You subscribe to a made up system of morality based on your feeling that you like it or find it intuitive.

By your logic, you have no more right to commend God than you do to condemn him. You are judging god, just not negatively.

That is the basic problem with the whole system of Christianity (and many other religions). God gets only credit for what goes right. Man gets only credit for what goes wrong. Or some proxy like Satan, who, after all, can't operate unless man "gives place" to him (or god allows it).

So it's okay for me to judge god to be good, but not okay to judge him to be bad. Therefore, in effect, I don't get to judge god, period. I just blindly accept what he does as good. Is that about the size of it?
Correct. The apostle Paul said as much in Romans 9.
Quote:
If so, then what is the basis for worship? I can't evaluate god objectively and then give him the true worship he craves and needs. I only have the option to credit him with 100% wholesome goodness no matter what happens in my observable world or how discordant scripture is with reality. Such credit is meaningless because it has no basis other than simply reflecting god's own opinion of himself. Given that, how does he get any gratification out of such "worship"?
The Bible doesn't tell us that he gets gratification out of worship. We don't worship in order to benefit him. It glorifies him -- but he doesn't need what we have.
Quote:
True praise says, "you're great because you kept your word and bestowed your grace", etc. Fake praise says, "you're great because you said you're great and I'm afraid you'll burn me in hell forever if I tell you what I really think (even if it's just, 'I don't know' or 'I don't believe in you')".

Actually, true praise is because he is great and he's kept his word and bestowed his grace. He is also all powerful and is capable of burning me in hell forever, but he chose not to.
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