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Actually, I was referring to the olden days of Europe... back when America was the "land of the free" and free from the religious oppression and prosecution of Europe. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
The Europe of olden days never was tolerant to other religions (especially the Roma and the Jewish who got blamed for the plague). This is why so many fleed to America.
For instance here in Holland we fought the 80-year war vs Spain, simply because they were Catholics and the Dutch are mostly Protestant.
We Dutch were also notorious pirates and the Dutch V.O.C conquered large parts of the world. Well, we at least had our hands in large parts of the (slave) trading that happened around the world.
The Europe of olden days never was tolerant to other religions (especially the Roma and the Jewish). This is why so many fleed to America.
For instance here in Holland we fought the 80-year war vs Spain, simply because they were Catholics and the Dutch are mostly Protestant.
We Dutch were also notorious pirates and the Dutch V.O.C conquered large parts of the world. Well, we at least had our hands in lots of the (slave) trading that happened around the world.
And that's exactly what I was referring to. The Europe of Old was controlled by a dictatorship of Religion. Now that the "dictatorship" is gone, Europe is a great place. The Europe of old is the reason why religion needs to stay out of politics.
And I've got a close friend in Holland whom I met about........ 9 years ago or so.
And I've got a close friend in Holland whom I met about........ 9 years ago or so.
At least I've been Dutch for more than 9 years.
I'd say we got rid of religion because of Hitler. The evil of fanatics is undeniable when you've seen what the Nazis were capable of. It turned the poor into non-thinking blindly following automatons.
I'd suggest we don't need no fanatics (the theist or atheist kind) in politics.
At least I've been Dutch for more than 9 years.
I'd say we got rid of religion because of Hitler. The evil of fanatics is undeniable when you've seen what the Nazis were capable of. It turned the poor into non-thinking blindly following automatons.
I'd suggest we don't need no fanatics (the theist or atheist kind) in politics.
To further your last statement, we don't need anybody who's opinions are based purely on religion to be involved in politics.
"Hitler's Religion" - an essay
"Hitler's Religion," by Anne Nicol Gaylor (http://ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hitler.html - broken link)
something to think about.
Hitler was a Catholic who become warped into a monster.
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Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic until he died. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941.
There was really no reason for Hitler to doubt his good standing as a Catholic. The Catholic press in Germany was eager to curry his favor, and the princes of the Catholic Church never asked for his excommunication. Religions encourage their followers to hold authority in unquestioning respect; this is what makes devout religionists such wonderful dupes for dictators.
When Hitler narrowly escaped assassination in Munich in November, 1939, he gave the credit to providence. "Now I am completely content," he exclaimed. "The fact that I left the Burgerbraukeller earlier than usual is a corroboration of Providence's intention to let me reach my goal." Catholic newspapers throughout the Reich echoed this, declaring that it was a miraculous working of providence that had protected their Fuhrer. One cardinal, Michael Faulhaber, sent a telegram instructing that a Te Deum be sung in the cathedral of Munich, "to thank Divine Providence in the name of the archdiocese for the Fuhrer's fortunate escape." The Pope also sent his special personal congratulations!
Later the Pope was to publicly describe Hitler's opposition to Russia as a "highminded gallantry in defense of the foundations of Christian culture." Several German bishops openly supported Hitler's invasion of Russia, calling it a "European crusade." One bishop exhorted all Catholics to fight for "a victory that will allow Europe to breathe freely again and will promise all nations a new future."
Biographer John Toland wrote of Hitler's religion: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god -- so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty. Himmler was pleased to murder with mercy. He ordered technical experts to devise gas chambers which would eliminate masses of Jews efficiently and 'humanely,' then crowded the victims into boxcars and sent them east to stay in ghettos until the killing centers in Poland were completed."
Jews, of course, were not the only "holy" victims. In Yugoslavia, Hitler installed a Croatian, Ante Pavelic, as his puppet, and Pavelic, a Catholic like Hitler, began extermination of the Serbs, who were Greek Orthodox. One of my relatives by marriage is a Yugoslavian, a Serb, who survived World War II by going "underground" with the advent of Nazism in his country. Out of his immediate family of 17 (this includes his parents, siblings, aunts, uncles and first cousins), only three survived. His mother and sister just disappeared, his mother shortly after being given the opportunity to convert to Catholicism, an offer she refused. The Vatican was not unaware of the massacres conducted in Yugoslavia in the name of Catholicism, but Pope Pius remained diplomatically quiet. In fact, one of his actions was to receive Ante Pavelic in private audience, thereby giving his blessing to this regime.
...
//
Here are a couple of quotes from one of the greatest freethinkers of the 19th century on politics and religion.
Our government should be entirely and purely secular. The religious views of a candidate should be kept entirely out of sight. He/She should not be compelled to give his/her opinion as to the inspiration of the Bible,the propriety of infant baptism, or the Immaculate Conception. All of these things are private and personal. He/She should be allowed to settle such things for him/herself and should he/she decide contrary to the law and will of God, let him/her settle that matter with God. People ought to be wise enough to select as their officers men/women who know something of political affairs, who comprehend the present greatness, and clearly perceive the future grandeur of our country.
It probably will not be long until the churches will divided sharply upon political, as upon theological questions, and when that day comes, it's there are not liberals enough to hold the balance of power, this Government will be destroyed. The liberty of man is not safe in the hands of any church. Wherever the Bible and the sword are in partnership, man is a slave.
These are quotes by Robert Greene Ingersoll, who in the 19th century was considered one of the foremost free thinkers of our time.
Seems to me the man knew what he was talking about even back then.
He who endeavors to control the mind by force is a tyrant, he who submits is a Slave
I want to do what little I can to make my country truly free, or him or her to broaden the intellectual horizon of our people to destroy the prejudices born of ignorance and fear, to do away with the blind worship of the ignoble past, with the idea that all the great and good are dead, that the living are totally depraved, that all pleasures are sins, that sighs and groans are alone pleasing to God, that thought is dangerous, that intellectual courage is a crime, that cowardice is a virtue, that a certain belief is necessary to secure salvation, that to carry across in this world will give us a Palm in the next, and that we must allow some priest to be the pilot of our soul.
Until every soul is freely permitted to investigate every book and creed and dogma for itself the world cannot be free. Mankind will be enslaved until there is mental Granger and off to allow each man to have his thought and say. This earth will be a paradise when men can, upon all these questions differ, and yet grasped each other's hands and his friends, it is amazing to me that a difference of opinion upon subjects that we know nothing with certainty about, should make us hate, persecute, and despise each other. Why a difference of opinion upon predestination, or the Trinity, should make people imprisoned and burn each other seems beyond the comprehension of man, and yet in all countries where Christians have existed, they have destroyed each other to the exact extent of their power. Why should a believer in God hate an atheist ? Surely an atheist has not injured God, and surely he is human, capable of joy and pain, and entitled to all the rights of man. Would it not be far better to treat this atheist, at least, as well as he treats us?
Some years ago I read this quote:
"The church stands up for the oppressed only when it itself is oppressed".
In America, religion has less to do with the teachings of Jesus or to follow god's laws, but to justify and excuse typical bourgeoisie attitudes. And exactly for this reason I don't like to see religion influencing politics.
Last edited by Visvaldis; 12-02-2007 at 05:54 PM..
Some years ago I read this quote:
"The church stands up for the oppressed only when it itself is oppressed".
In America, religion has less to do with the teachings of Jesus or to follow god's laws, but to justify and excuse typical bourgeoisie attitudes. And exactly for this reason I don't like to see religion influencing politics.
In this I agree with you. But I still believe that your opinons/believes, whether you state them openly or not, are always going to influence your actions and choices. We don't live in a vacuum.
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The Europe of olden days never was tolerant to other religions (especially the Roma and the Jewish who got blamed for the plague). This is why so many fleed to America.
At least I've been Dutch for more than 9 years.
The evil of fanatics is undeniable when you've seen what the Nazis were capable of. It turned the poor into non-thinking blindly following automatons.
