Isaiah 11:10

[whoppers]

Originally Posted by hiker45

Whoppers, thanks for your post.

In all of the other posts, I never got a clear idea how Jews interpret that passage. Your explanation made a lot of sense.

Do you think other Jews agree with you?

You're welcome and thank you for enjoying it.

Yes - I think it's safe to say that the majority of Jews would accept this plain-sense reading of the text, rather than construing some elaborate theological bulwark of hoped-for allusions to Jesus as the Messiah. The text really is very clear in its import - and reading the entire oracle of Isaiah demonstrates this very clearly.

The thing about Biblical oracles (a much more accurate term than prophecy, in my opinion) is that very few of them are what could be considered "obscure". They were designed to be understood then and there for the audience they were intended for, or they would have been pretty useless. Isaiah was not pronouncing oracles for readers hundreds or thousands of years later: this is pure hubris on the part of many people who think the Bible is some book full of secrets JUST for them! Never mind the plain-sense of the text, since that doesn't fit my situation or worldview.... there must be some hidden meaning that applies to my life personally! No - not at all. These works were written for specific people in specific times, and these two categories do not always match our own situations. Not many people today share the same hopes and fears that the 8th century Israelites shared.

To sum it up best, I will quote the introduction to the book in The Jewish Study Bible (Oxford University Press, 2004) - which I highly recommend due to its fantastic notes and essays. Truly a great work.

The prophet Isaiah, the son of Amoz, lived in Jerusalem during the last half of the 8th century BCE. His prophecies are deeply rooted in his time and place, and many of them address current events of his day.
(ibid, p. 781)

While it is true that the very eschatological nature of the oracle in chapters 10-11, etc. does point to a future time, it is still full of references to current events and peoples and their situations.

[whoppers]

To get the whole story and the context of the oracle concerning the future Davidic King - an ideal king who would render Justice accordingly - one needs to read several sections of text.

Isaiah 2:1-4 begins the story of the ideal king of the future times. These future times are marked by a calamity for Israel, and the punishing of the haughty Egyptians and Assyrians. It's important to note that Isaiah believed that the city Jerusalem would never fall. How wrong he was in this belief of his. It is also important to note that Assyria and Egypt do not received the standard oracles of vengeance we find in other prophets. They were the tools of Yahweh, chastising the sinful Israelites, and therefore will not be punished for their actions concerning this. Rather, they will be punished for their haughty nature. The future idyllic eschatological age will be marked by the recognition of Yahweh as the one true God of all the universe, and marks one of the first and major movements towards Monotheism of the Israelites. The nature of Israelite religion was vastly different prior to Isaiah. It will also be ruled by a king from the Davidic line, and a cessation of war between the nations. The nations will be content with what they have.

The word that Isaiah son of Amoz prophesied concerning Judah and Jerusalem. (1)

In the days to come,
The Mount of YHWH's House [the Temple Mount in Jerusalem]
Shall stand firm above the mountains
And tower above the hills;
And all the nations
Shall gaze on it with joy. (2)
And the many peoples shall go and say:
"Come,
Let us go up to the Mount of YHWH,
To the House of the God of Jacob; [i.e., Israel]
That he may instruct us in his ways,
And that we may walk in his paths."
For instruction shall come forth from Zion,
The word of YHWH from Jerusalem. (3)
Thus he will judge among the nations
And arbitrate for the many peoples,
And they shall beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning hooks:
Nation shall not take up
Sword against nation;
They shall never again know war. (4)
(Isaiah 2:1-4, NJPS)

Flash forward to chapter 9, wherein is detailed the future king's rescue of the Israelites from some sort of trouble. An important note is the term "Messiah" is never used, and Isaiah itself would form the basis for the later Messianic idea.

The people that walked in darkness
Have seen a brilliant light;
On those who dwelt in a land of gloom
Light has dawned. (1)
You have magnified that nation,
Have given it great joy;
They have rejoiced before you
As they rejoice at reaping time,
As they exult
When dividing spoil. (2)
For the yoke that they bore
And the stick on their back -
The rod of their taskmaster -
You have broken as on the day of Midian. (3)
Truly, all the boots put on to stamp with
And all the garments donned to infamy
Have been fed to the flames,
Devoured by fire. (4)
For a child has been born to us,
A son has been given us.
And authority has settled on his shoulders.
He has been named
"The Mighty God is planning grace;
The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - (5)
In token of abundant authority
And of peace without limit
Upon David's throne and kingdom,
That it may be firmly established
In justice and in equity
Now and evermore,
The zeal of YHWH of Hosts [Armies]
Shall bring this to pass. (6)
(Isaiah 9:1-6)

The role of the future king becomes clearer. To get the next part in the story is to go where our original verse comes into play, which can be read from 11:1 - 12:10 for a more complete picture. Of course, there are matters that come between, but the main gist of the matter can be found in the sequence I outlined above. I will skip typing out 11-12 because I just don't want to do it! You'll have to look it up yourselves heh heh!

An important motif as to WHY a Davidic King must rule can be found in the failed promises of 2 Samuel 7:8-16 and Psalm 89:20-37 in which it is said that a Davidic King will ALWAYS sit upon the throne of Jerusalem. As Biblical and secular history both attest, the Davidic Kingship ceased upon the advent of the Babylonian Conquest. The hope for a future Davidic King is a result of these promises, yet a failure to realize that the promise had basically failed. There is a fascinating work by William Schniedewind dealing with how this promise was viewed, received and changed by the Biblical authors.

[cupid dave]

Originally Posted by mordant

In my experience, Jews will generally take pretty strong exception to the concept of Christianity being a branch of Judaism. Even a cultural, non-devout / non-practicing Jew will bristle at that. Just ask "Jews for Jesus" who try to maintain a Jewish cultural identity while claiming Jesus (okay, Jeshua) as their messiah.

Yes, of course.

Judaism of today is a lock on the Judaism of 32Ad, just as Jesus had found it in his day.

Using the Mishnahof the 1st CenturyBC, those same Jews composed their two Talmuds which specifically attack Mary and Jesus as apostates to be continuously ignored and discredited. The Talmud became the party line from that moment on and continues to be virtually what is called incorrectly, Torah Observant Jews. Jews today are Talmud observant and hence, will "take pretty strong exception to the concept of Christianity being a branch of Judaism."

This of course is their appeal to authority which is guilty of having missed the return of the Elijah in 32AD.

[cupid dave]

Originally Posted by whoppers

Perhaps a better translation - a more accurate and faithful one to the Hebrew text (which is - after all -what we should be striving towards - will render:

In that day,
The stock of Jesse that has remained standing
Shall become a standard to peoples -
Nations shall seek his counsel
And his abode shall be honored.
(Isaiah 11:10, NJPS)

I agree with this reading also.

It is clear from Gen 22 and Isaiah 53 that Israel is also the son of God, and will "remaining standing" as "a standard to the people" of Islam and Christianity as those "Nations seek" Israel's "counsel" and the State "be honored."


Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

[cupid dave]

Originally Posted by whoppers

Yes - I think it's safe to say that the majority of Jews would accept this plain-sense reading of the text, rather than construing some elaborate theological bulwark of hoped-for allusions to Jesus as the Messiah. .

Again, I concur, "it's safe to say that the majority of Jews would accept this plain-sense reading of the text, rather than construing some elaborate theological bulwark of hoped-for allusions to Jesus."

But what is soon to confront the Jews of today is the wisdom and sanity of realizing that Christ was the Elijah who had returned in 32AD, as evidenced by the miracles he had traditional been expected to perform and his answer to whether the 5th cup at the Seder was to be drank or poured out:



Both Elijah and Jesus ascended intoHeaven from the foot of a mountain.

Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead

Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.

Both Elijah and Jesus disappearedinto heaven before witnesses.

Both Elijah and Jesus "troubled Israel."

Both Elijah and Jesus were hunteddown by the Jewish authorities.

Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.

Both Elijah and Jesus pondered inthe wilderness 40 days.

Both Elijah and Jesus walked across water.

Both wrote letters to people onEarth after they had ascended.

Both appointed a successor, Elishaby Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.

Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities

Both gave a successor the power toraise the dead

Both gave a successor a symbolicauthority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.

Both asked that they be releasedfrom the job, that this "cup" be taken from them somehow.

Both are said to have hadmiraculous births.

Both multiplied the meal for manypeople they feed in the crowd

Both destroyed the paganworshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.

Both were promised faithfulnessthree times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.


What is interesting about this turn of events is that the Christians will ever accept this, hence the Jewish conversion to Jesus will still separate them from the Christianity which for 2000 years preached a message no Jew could have accepted as reported

[OzzyRules]

Thanks for the replies.

[OzzyRules]

I appreciate moving the thread here. This forum was probably more appropriate.