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just because you can't see it doesn't make it real. I presume we can read as just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it isn't real.
I have sometimes wondered whether a rush of the Mystical would make a theist of me. I have read of people who have experienced what certainly sounds like what hit Mystic, but they did not always get the idea that it was contact with an invisible creative cosmic mind.
I know that Mystic was an atheist before he had the godrush. Atheists come in all sises and I do not know what sort of atheist Mystic was or what thinking he had done about the various questions before he got this experience.
I would like to think that, if it hit me, I would remain pretty much as I am other than having experienced the Mystical experience. I am sure that I have experience the deconversion 'release' even though I was never a theist, and it was letting go of the need to wonder about whether Biblegod was real. that was the release, not giving up belief.
*rant..Grr so tired of this ridiculous not-being-able-to-rep-people-system. How is it that people who write nothing of substance have 15 million reps but the people who write interesting posts have just a few hundred or thousand. *
Mystic...I'm really short on time at the moment, and as you were so good as to provide me with a detailed answer, I really want to take the time to read through your various syntheses - as I think you deserve a considered response (if you are interested that is). It may take me some days (or weeks) to get to it though ...
Arequipa, the only thing atheists can do in this case is speculate whether such an experience would make a theist of us. I have had a number of experiences that may be viewed by some as 'spiritual'. - I have shared these before. And no, they didn't make a theist of me.
However, perhaps because of this, in Mystics case I am prepared to make my best attempt to try to be as open minded as possible before drawing any conclusions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead
Indeed as I have. I ability to just say, "I don't know" what lies out there beyond my knowledge therefore I can leave it be. I'm an atheist because I don't need to make it up.
That is my wonderful epiphany.
I agree with you though, atheists come in all shapes and from what I've read, with the amount of meditating Mystic was into I am surprised it took so long to have the God fantasy. Humans are wonderfully complex creatures, we are amazing and can do amazing things. And that, I know, I have seen, and can prove to an audience. Unfortunately our amazing ability often comes with a price. As I watched the news yesterday to see that a man had axed his 13 year old son to death because in his mind he was a demon. For some it's an epiphany which they think enriches their lives and is harmless enough, for others it can be a very harmful mental illness capable of killing others. It's a fine line, IMO. I take it with a bit of caution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njyZRt_DGtU
My honest immediate response to that was along the lines of - if there is a god, what would be the purpose of making it so damned hard to reach an epiphany?
Mystic...I'm really short on time at the moment, and as you were so good as to provide me with a detailed answer, I really want to take the time to read through your various syntheses - as I think you deserve a considered response (if you are interested that is). It may take me some days (or weeks) to get to it though ...
No problem. I did say browse at your leaisure. It is not an easy read . . . but it does have sufficient analogies to make the underlying principles comprehensible . . . if the actual science is not. I am big on analogies.
Quote:
Arequipa, the only thing atheists can do in this case is speculate whether such an experience would make a theist of us. I have had a number of experiences that may be viewed by some as 'spiritual'. - I have shared these before. And no, they didn't make a theist of me.
However, perhaps because of this, in Mystics case I am prepared to make my best attempt to try to be as open minded as possible before drawing any conclusions.
My honest immediate response to that was along the lines of - if there is a god, what would be the purpose of making it so damned hard to reach an epiphany?
Why does there have to be a purpose? Why isn't it just the way it is? I see us as embryo Spirits in a physical womb. It is like an embryo infant in a mother's womb asking about and trying to understand or interact with the world outside the womb.
I am big on analogies. Yes, you seem to be an analogist as well and find most of your meaning in them. I find that a bit daunting when pages and pages are devoted to it but that's my opinion only. I like an analogy now and then but pages of them, no. It makes me think you don't have anything else to say about it. Imagine this with me, that's what it says to me.
Why does there have to be a purpose?Exactly! There doesn't, you can just not know. You can wish, dream, fantasize.
Why isn't it just the way it is? What actually IS ,is nothing, nada, zip. Why can't that just be good enough? Nobody knows, end of story. Why can't you just exclaim you are looking, searching, want to know. Until you can offer proof, that's all it is. You hope you've found it, you want to. etc.
I see us as embryo Spirits in a physical womb. It is like an embryo infant in a mother's womb asking about and trying to understand or interact with the world outside the womb.
But we aren't, and we do interact with the world. That's the only difference. If that does it for you great! But you can't convince others of that, just share what you think. We get to judge if it's crazy to us or logical thinking. No convincing necessary.
Cruithne, the wish is indeed taken for the deed and while I love reps I have got past counting the numbers. They cannot of course match the numbers that theists can garner with quite simple praise the Lord posts.
In a way the 'why is it so difficult' question is part of or at least along the same lines of the problem of evil, though more a nuisance than a crime.
While it is possible (and very easy ) to dismiss questions about why it is made so difficult to know God with 'God knows what he is doing' or suchlike, it is not so much an answer, but the evasion of an answer, and that is not too unusual in God apologetics.
It could all be true. If God had a plan, it would probably not make sense to us, I can see the point in the argument. But. yet again it is something that is not only no decent evidence that a god is there but a niggling little extra suspicion or problem that adds just one more bit of doubt that the whole god - schmier makes any sense.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-10-2014 at 12:45 PM..
No problem. I did say browse at your leaisure. It is not an easy read . . . but it does have sufficient analogies to make the underlying principles comprehensible . . . if the actual science is not. I am big on analogies. Why does there have to be a purpose? Why isn't it just the way it is? I see us as embryo Spirits in a physical womb. It is like an embryo infant in a mother's womb asking about and trying to understand or interact with the world outside the womb.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead
But we aren't, and we do interact with the world. That's the only difference. If that does it for you great! But you can't convince others of that, just share what you think. We get to judge if it's crazy to us or logical thinking. No convincing necessary.
But the world IS the womb. It is God who is outside the womb as Spirit. That is why it is so difficult to interact from our embryo Spirit. We need to be reborn as Spirit to interact with God directly. I'm sorry I haven't made my goal clear enough, Poppy. I am not trying to convince anyone . . . just explain my views and defend them from attack.
But the world IS the womb. It is God who is outside the womb as Spirit. That is why it is so difficult to interact from our embryo Spirit. We need to be reborn as Spirit to interact with God directly. I'm sorry I haven't made my goal clear enough, Poppy. I am not trying to convince anyone . . . just explain my views and defend them from attack.
You view the world as the womb of God. Just you. You speak to others as though you are teaching truth, you are a vessel of knowledge not yet known to us. In reality you are only trying to convince others what you hope is the truth, your experience without proof equals your opinion, just like the rest of us. It's a bit condescending to assume otherwise, and that is why you feel you are defending yourself. In fact it's the opposite, you were correcting others and they in turn were debating your corrections.
Here is your first response on this thread:
Putting faith in religion is a separate issue from putting faith in the existence of God. I realize that the two are usually joined at the hip for most people and no distinction is made between them. But they are quite separate issues entirely. One (religion) requires faith in the man-made assertions and conclusions ABOUT God . . . the other doesn't.
This leads to the obvious question: How do you know? You speak as if you know for others, not just what you wish to be true for yourself. This is why you get debate, you invite it. You might want to express your views as opinion, and stop correcting others if you don't want to start debate. But, your choice, some like a good debate. You are trying to convince others that you know and they do not. That is an invitation, you are not being attacked.
I do believe you really think you know something we don't, but in respect for others who think the same you might want to state it as opinion because almost every Theist I've talked to thinks they know the truth about God and need to correct others, with no proof I might add. Just clever analogies and revelations.
Last edited by PoppySead; 01-11-2014 at 09:23 AM..
Should that read 'former theist' or have you seen the light?
Mystic, to my understanding, was an atheist before the great reveal. I thought he/she might remember how it was on the other side of the God net.
I thank you for editing my posts so the masses can comprehend them. I corrected the issue.
Mystic, to my understanding, was an atheist before the great reveal. I thought he/she might remember how it was on the other side of the God net.
I thank you for editing my posts so the masses can comprehend them. I corrected the issue.
No prob. I sometimes wish people would edit my posts Mystic as an atheist before the Godrush, reminded me rather of CS Lewis...in fact of a lot of atheists. They hadn't got the rational backup to atheism, so when the 'There isn't anything there' thing collapsed under one or other of the conversion methods, there was no rationale to fall back on.
Created by what or who, exactly? Like we're the result of some extraterrestrial's 7th grade science experiment? Or some other extraterrestrial race a la Engineers in Prometheus?
If you're referring, more specifically, to having been created by a mythological deity, no, I'd gather skeptics don't privately weigh such matters. Since mythological deities are characters in ancient literature and are akin, to say, Voldemort or Sauron, I'd wager they're not on a skeptic's radar as a legitimate "First Cause."
However, if you're speaking in more broad terms, as in, there having been a Cause, as in, First Cause, a Prime Mover, etc., well, that depends on the atheist.
I am a relative metaphysical atheist and I contemplate and study all sorts of First Cause concepts. I find them quite fascinating; however, I am not wed to the idea or any one idea. I also identify with agnosticism because I believe the existence of a First Cause is unknown (weak). While I believe it to be unknown at this point in time, I still entertain various concepts. It's fun.
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the wish is indeed taken for the deed and while I love reps 
I have got past counting the numbers. They cannot of course match the numbers that theists can garner with quite simple praise the Lord posts. 
) to dismiss questions about why it is made so difficult to know God with 'God knows what he is doing' or suchlike, it is not so much an answer, but the evasion of an answer, and that is not too unusual in God apologetics.
Mystic as an atheist before the Godrush, reminded me rather of CS Lewis...in fact of a lot of atheists. They hadn't got the rational backup to atheism, so when the 'There isn't anything there' thing collapsed under one or other of the conversion methods, there was no rationale to fall back on. 