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Old 01-29-2014, 01:58 AM
 
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This is a very good documentary about how the ancient Jews were polytheists and later scribes tried to downplay that fact. I recommend it if you have an hour to spare (The narrator is very pretty!).

"Judaism and Christianity are proud of their ancient monotheistic pedigree. But in my opinion, the secret buried in the Bible is that this history has been skillfully manufactured by the scribes who composed these ancient texts. The claims that Abraham and his descendants worshipped a unique and distinctive god just don't stack up. The truth about the Bible is that for most of the time its people were polytheists and their chief god had a wife. That undermines the foundations of modern monotheism to its core."


Biblical Archaeology: The Wife of God | BBC Documentary - YouTube
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:07 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Thanks. I have got to admit I found that more appealing that 45 minutes of a creationist.
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:47 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,086,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathGreetsMeWarm View Post
This is a very good documentary about how the ancient Jews were polytheists and later scribes tried to downplay that fact. I recommend it if you have an hour to spare (The narrator is very pretty!).

"Judaism and Christianity are proud of their ancient monotheistic pedigree. But in my opinion, the secret buried in the Bible is that this history has been skillfully manufactured by the scribes who composed these ancient texts. The claims that Abraham and his descendants worshipped a unique and distinctive god just don't stack up. The truth about the Bible is that for most of the time its people were polytheists and their chief god had a wife. That undermines the foundations of modern monotheism to its core."
No. Ashera was not God's wife. God doesn't have a wife. Ashera is a false goddess created in the minds of men. This is an old idea and has been thoroughly addressed.
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:33 PM
 
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I'm not even going to address Vizio's protestations because that is all they are: uninformed protestations from someone who hasn't taken the time to properly research the subject of the origins of Israelite Monotheism and the religion of the Israelites before that change, and hasn't even offered any contrary evidence.

While Francesco (don't make me spell her last name!) does make some assumptions that many scholars would find highly subjective, the basic thrust of many of her claims are well supported by mounds of evidence - and has been for over 50 years. Even the hero of many conservative believers - William Foxwell Albright - was well aware of the role that Asherah played in early Israelite religion.

A quick rundown for those who didn't watch the documentary (though you really should!):
Asherah is the Biblical Hebrew form of the Ugaritic goddess Athirat (Ugaritic "th" became "sh" in BH, and the feminine ending "at" became "ah" in BH). For convenience sake, we'll refer to her as Asherah. She was the wife of the head god of Ugarit: El. El, in turn, is the same name that the Hebrew god is referred to (and it's alternate form: Elohim). Both figures are said to have been the creators of the rest of the gods, and El was seen as a patriarchal figure who was old and had a grey beard. El was known as Bull El and that iconography is found in the Tabernacle and in two polemical stories which are anti-iconoclastic in nature but which illustrate that associating El with bulls was common in Israelite practice - even in the official state cultus). In time, in Israelite religion, El became synonomous with Yahweh (where they had once been separate) and Yahweh had taken on characteristics of the Ugaritic god Baal, the Storm god. At some point, the relationship of husband and wife that El and Asherah shared seemed to have been transferred to Yahweh and Asherah, according to textual and archaeological evidence we have.

Here is a small story from Ugarit in which Asherah is petitioning her husband to get her son Baal his own palace (brackets indicate reconstructions from broken or obscured parts of the tablet). It is possible that Asherah is estranged from her husband for some reason in this story from The Epic of Baal:
Now she heads out
For El at the springs of the Rivers,
Amid the streams of the Deeps. (20-22)

She comes to the mountain of El and enters
The tent of the King, the Father of Years. (23-24)

At the feet of El she bows down and falls,
Prostrates herself and honors him. (25-26)

There El perceives her,
He breaks into a smile and laughs. (27-28)

His feet on the footstool he stamps,
And twirls his fingers. (29-30)

He raises his voice and declares: (30)
"Why has Lady Athir[at] of the Sea arrived?
Why has the Creatress of the G[ods] come? (31-32)

Are you very hungry, having travel[ed,]
Or are you very thirsty, having jour[neyed?]. (33-34)

Eat or drink:
E[at] food from the tables,
Drink wine from the goblets,
From a golden cup, the blood of trees. (35-38)

Or does the 'hand' [idiom for "penis" in both Biblical Hebrew and Ugaritic - whoppers] of El the King excite you,
The love of the Bull arouse you?" (38-39)
(The Epic of Baal, CAT 1.4 [Tablet 4], Column IV, Lines 20-39, trans. M. Smith, Ugaritic Narrative Poetry, Society of Biblical Literature: Writings From the Biblical World 9, Scholars Press, 1997)
An interesting story, and one that has shed enormous light on early Israel and its religious beliefs. I have a replica of one of the tablets of this Epic sitting on my shelf at home, among others. When I'm bored, I get out the clay and make my own tablets and have my neighbor fire them in his kiln. It's very handy for practicing my Ugaritic in the hands-on approach!

As for the idea that Yahweh had a wife named Asherah, one need only see the vehement attempts of later tradents in the Hebrew Bible to downplay that relationship by relegating her to a hateful object (though one that had been fully accepted previously, whatever it may be exactly). Especially interesting has been the Kuntillet Ajrud inscriptions and drawings that show what the inscription labels as "Yahweh and his Asherah". That is in the documentary, I believe.


None of this information is new (as the documentary might have us believe), as it's been pretty standard information in Biblical Scholarship for many years now. What most still debate is what the exact nature of the "asherim" were in the Hebrew Bible. Fascinating subject, however!
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:35 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,086,021 times
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Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
I'm not even going to address Vizio's protestations because that is all they are: uninformed protestations from someone who hasn't taken the time to properly research the subject of the origins of Israelite Monotheism and the religion of the Israelites before that change, and hasn't even offered any contrary evidence.
Looks like you just did, actually. Instead of using facts, though...you would rather just say I'm wrong. I get it.

Fact of the matter is, though, Asherah is never presented as being God's wife in the Bible. It's just not there. I'm sorry.
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:47 PM
 
35,095 posts, read 50,971,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathGreetsMeWarm View Post
This is a very good documentary about how the ancient Jews were polytheists and later scribes tried to downplay that fact. I recommend it if you have an hour to spare (The narrator is very pretty!).

"Judaism and Christianity are proud of their ancient monotheistic pedigree. But in my opinion, the secret buried in the Bible is that this history has been skillfully manufactured by the scribes who composed these ancient texts. The claims that Abraham and his descendants worshipped a unique and distinctive god just don't stack up. The truth about the Bible is that for most of the time its people were polytheists and their chief god had a wife. That undermines the foundations of modern monotheism to its core."


Biblical Archaeology: The Wife of God | BBC Documentary - YouTube

With that statement (The narrator is very pretty!) as you wrote above makes the entire video/article seem unimportant and trivial because the "only" reason to watch is because the "narrator is very pretty".

No thanks.
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Old 01-29-2014, 04:20 PM
2K5Gx2km
 
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Originally Posted by CSD610 View Post
With that statement (The narrator is very pretty!) as you wrote above makes the entire video/article seem unimportant and trivial because the "only" reason to watch is because the "narrator is very pretty".

No thanks.
Don't be afraid, she's actually a scholar.
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Old 01-29-2014, 04:37 PM
2K5Gx2km
 
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The video is pretty well done. It is basically divided into three sections:

1) El, the head of the Canaanite Pantheon was borrowed by the Israelites and made to be Israel's God YHWH, and therefore not unique nor necessarily the only God as revealed by hints of his divine council.

2) Asherah, as the wife of El, was worshiped by the Israelites which is clearly seen in the Hebrew texts, and is possibly hinted at being YHWH's wife in one reading of a text.

3) The reasons for the changes from a polytheistic beginning to a monotheistic one after the Babylonian captivity.

It's a good general starter for someone just getting familiar with these concepts, but as whoppers said there are many more details and much of which has been around for a while now.

Worth the watch!
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Old 01-29-2014, 05:13 PM
 
136 posts, read 175,840 times
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Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
No. Ashera was not God's wife. God doesn't have a wife. Ashera is a false goddess created in the minds of men.
This thread isn't about whether Vizio believes God has a wife.

This thread is about whether the ancient Jews believed God has a wife.

The evidence is clear: the ancient Jews were polytheists. Archeology didn't need to confirm this; it's clear enough in the Bible. Notice that the Old Testament does not anywhere refute the existence of other deities. It mentions them all the time and only says that they can't be worshipped or can't be worshipped above the head honcho Elohim or Yahweh or whatever his name is.
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Old 01-29-2014, 07:36 PM
 
3,483 posts, read 4,023,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathGreetsMeWarm View Post
This thread isn't about whether Vizio believes God has a wife.

This thread is about whether the ancient Jews believed God has a wife.

The evidence is clear: the ancient Jews were polytheists. Archeology didn't need to confirm this; it's clear enough in the Bible. Notice that the Old Testament does not anywhere refute the existence of other deities. It mentions them all the time and only says that they can't be worshipped or can't be worshipped above the head honcho Elohim or Yahweh or whatever his name is.

Yes, indeed.

And anyone familiar with why laws are enacted knows that laws are not created in a vacuum. They are created to stop practices that are being actively practiced. The very vehemence with which the later writers of the Hebrew Bible (the word "later" being a key factor here) railed against the more polytheistic practices of both prior folk and state religion points to a practice that had been normative in Israelite worship. Even the patriarchal stories of worshipping multiple Els (El Shaddai, El Roi, El Olam, Elyon) and the later attempt by tradents to solidify these gods into one ultimate god Yahweh points to this. Deuteronomy 32:8-10 and it's interpretive history is an interesting look at how the ancient Israelites viewed the gods.

Shiloh is correct in stating that the program is a good introduction to the subject, especially since we have so much information about the subject that even an entire thread could not do it justice unfortunately.

Asherah was a great lady, for sure, but I'm still a fan of Anat personally. The Judge Shamgar ben-Anath (Shamgar Son-of Anat) is a good indicator of multiple gods being worshipped, as well as Ish-Baal (Man of Baal) and the other theophoric names which do not have El or Yahweh as their basis. It became such an embarrassment that some writers changed their names to Ish-Bosheth (Man of Shame) ha ha! The Hebrew Bible has always been an extremely biased and ideological work, with multiple voices all having their say. It's the Monotheistic result that has made the greatest impact however on believers, so I suppose it's natural for some resistance.
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