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When did we start putting all of our trust into surveys?
Wait, let me guess. Surveys are only valid if they reinforce your side of the argument, right? That's usually how it works. If you had links to surveys proving we atheists wrong, I'm pretty certain you would be posting them.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
According to the last election, the polls were not in favor for Obama to win. We all see how that turned out... He won! How accurate was that?
I'm sure it was very accurate at the time the survey was taken. Surveys about opinions are subject to drastic changes even over a short period of time. However, what we're talking about are surveys that gauge people's knowledge - you know, the opposite of opinion. That type of result tends to be rather solid in its conclusion. Unless the religious suddeny all rush off to bone up on their belief systems, atheists will almost always know more about religion than the religious.
P.S. You should stop getting your surveys from Fox News.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
Also, I find it strange that a religious survey was taken and atheists knew so much about religions that they didn't believe in. I thought atheists didn't believe in God?
The vast majority of atheists started out as fairly devout believers in religion - and unlike most lifelong adherents to deity-worship, the atheists actually read their respective holy books.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
So why do they read the word if they don't believe?? Kinda odd how they had to establish a religion to not believe in God in order to not believe in God.
"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." -- Sun Tzu
Oh, and should I refrain from reading The Lord of the Rings because I don't believe in Gandalf and the Balrog?
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
And I'll probably get crucified for saying what I did. Oh well... Bring it
Yes, you're going to get persecuted. We might even decide to nail you to a cross. After all, atheists are a majority in America and we have all the power, money, political clout, and access to national media outlets - unlike you Christians who might have some half-organized local Christian club with a dozen or so members.
May I ask why religion poses such a threat to freedom?
The two largest religions - Christianity and Islam - have a mandate to "rule the world," and there are plenty of powerful people out there who take this mandate seriously. Is it any wonder why these two "great" religions are constantly at odds? And have been for at least 1500 years?
Religion, by its very nature, is fascistic, dictatorial, authoritarian, and intolerant. That is why there has never been a benevolent theocracy in all of human history. Any civilization, large or small, that allowed itself to be ruled by religion has been brutal, aggressive, warlike, fascistic, and thought nothing of arresting, imprisoning, and executing for religious crimes (blasphemy, heresy, apostacy, etc.). No theocratic society has ever enjoyed freedom - and even in America, there are plenty of religious organizations who, even as we speak, work tirelessly to censor and ban a significant amount of our literary and theatrical works. If you don't believe me, go take a look at One Million Moms and count the number of web pages they have listing all of the things they think should be banned. And that's just ONE organization.
Religion thinks it has the right to tell everyone what we can read, what music we can listen to, what shows and movies we can watch, what to wear, what to think, what to do with our private time, and, yes, even how to have sex. Not even the smallest thing - from hairstyles to your food choices - are left up to you. Religion dictates your entire life.
Hence any religion that attempts to insinuate itself into the political arena - which it tries to do all the time - is a threat to freedom. In this last presidential election, no less than three ultra-religious loons tried to obtain the GOP nomination (Perry, Bachmann, Santorum), which tells me that religious representatives are getting ever closer to the seats of power. And that's not even counting Huckabee who has ties to Dominionists - those who want to rewrite the Constitution to be in line with Old Testament Biblical law.
Finally, religion has a way of convincing otherwise good people to do outrageously horrible things. It has a habit of turning accepted morality upside down. Just look at the number of people who will defend the numerous atrocities committed in the Old Testament - even genocide, murdering children, and waging wars of aggression.
Unfortunately, there are many who will happily ignore tyranny if they happen to hold the same convictions as the tyrant - and religion is perhaps the biggest tyrant of them all. This makes religion exceedingly dangerous because those who do evil are hoodwinked into believing they are doing good. In the name of their God, of course. Look at Islam today - the oppression of women, death sentences for homosexuality, armed "morality police" who roam the streets issuing summary sentences to those they catch breaking a religious law, cruel and unusual punishments, etc.
And look at Christianity and the enormous amount of time, effort, resources, and money it has expended trying to keep gays in the closet. When the focus of religion is on practicing hatred, well ... would you want that religion actually ruling over you in a civil capacity? Yet if you're a homophobe or a religious zealot, you might just accept a death sentence for being gay in America. Who really knows how far religion would go should it ever obtain real and absolute power?
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
Because I actually see it the other way around. I think those who give themselves to evil and darkness are the ultimate threat. This country was founded by people who were "religious". Granted, not my idea of religious, but they claimed to be. After all, doesn't it say, "one nation, under God"? They wrote some amazing constitutions that I am ALL FOR protecting!!!
Obviously you don't realize that the ultra-religious are NOT in favor of protecting the Constitution wherever the Constitution contradicts scripture. Keep in mind that, for decades, slavery was part of the Constitution, and this condition existed, in part, because scripture endorsed and legitimized slavery as an institution. Thus millions of Africans suffered generations of enslavement that was defended for centuries with the Bible. And it still could be, even today, should anyone wish to go down that road again.
But the point here is that the religious see their holy books as the Supreme Law of the Land and NOT the Constitution or any other "man made" law. I've heard more than my fair share of Christians boldly proclaim that they don't care what the Constitution or the Supreme Court says in matters of morality - which is why they would have no qualms about taking away your freedoms to further the cause and culture of their own religious beliefs.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
I love this country and I want the best for our country! I don't see how I could be a threat. I hate that I get lumped into the same category as all the other hard core crazy fanatics who really don't know anything about the Bible yet they claim they do.
What makes you a threat is whether or not you would have the heart and soul to stand up against your own religion should your religion begin running roughshod over other people's freedoms. How many Muslims, for instance, took to the streets to protest the terrorism of 9/11? Tens of millions of Muslims were quick to protest the invasion of Iraq - but what about 9/11? Yeah ... that's my point. A LOT of people will claim to be good and decent folks who want nothing but peace and love - but if your religion goes insane, are you prepared to speak out against it? Most people will not, which is why even a small percentage of religious loons can direct the future of this nation since most everyone else will stand by and let them do it. Power is never taken; it is given.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
So I'm just wondering how someone like me, who loves people with her whole heart and would give the clothes off her back, could be such a threat to a country that was founded under God? I just hate this whole idea. I really do.
See what I wrote above for my answer to your question. Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you personally - I don't even know you to be attacking you. BUT, because I don't know you, I cannot be certain whether or not you could take a stand against your own religion. Most people will be unable to confront their own belief system even when the leaders of such go feral and rabid - especially if the people even half-heartedly agree with what their religion is espousing.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
I just don't know why we can't love one another and get along. When it comes down to it, and we have to stand together and fight against our foreign enemies, how can we do that if we can't trust and love the person we are standing next to?
Honestly, it's because America is becoming just like our foreign enemies. America is fast becoming the big anomaly in the Western World due to our religiosity and some extraordinarily fouled up priorities. I made mention in another post how America's love of guns and all things that kill prevented us from signing the Arms Trade Treaty - which means America took its place next to Iran and North Korea as one of three nations who didn't sign it. Gee ... aren't Iran and North Korea considered our "enemies?"
Like it or not, our so-called "Christian" values are causing us to fall behind - way behind - many other nations. Oh, that alone isn't the cause, but it isn't helping. Like I said, religion has never been a kind ruler. Ever. Not once. If our values come from religion, then it only stands to reason why we have an unkind society. For instance, you say you'd give your clothes off your back to someone in need. But would you vote for nationalized health care so that everyone can receive treatment and not just the wealthy? All of the secular nations - including ALL industrialized nations - have nationalized health care. America stands ALONE in the modern world in believing health care is not a right. Do you think religion and the ideals of charity interfere with our decision to make health care accessible to everyone? You bet it does.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
We have to stick together as a country and really figure out how to live in peace with one another. The greatest gift of all is love. Without love, we have nothing.
I sympathize with your appeal. I really do. But love through religion has strings attached - very big, thick, and unbreakable strings.
May I ask why religion poses such a threat to freedom? Because I actually see it the other way around.
You have it right, it is both ways and it depends on the nature of the religion. When a religion claims that moral laws are dictated from God, and one group claims to have isolated over 1,000 such in the NT as opposed to the 615 mitzvot in the OT, they are a threat to freedom. When a group says that the basis for order in society is concern for the well-being of everyone, liberty follows.
May I ask why religion poses such a threat to freedom?
Our country is bankrupt after being at war for 11+ years, all over religion and all the freedoms lost through the Patriot Act, the NSA, and a government gloating about collecting data on every citizen, as a result.
The passage of laws that impose christian ignorance on everyone, from blue laws to defining marriage with the bible. NC just added this christian ignorance to the state constitution last year.
Our country is bankrupt after being at war for 11+ years, all over religion and all the freedoms lost through the Patriot Act, the NSA, and a government gloating about collecting data on every citizen, as a result.
The passage of laws that impose christian ignorance on everyone, from blue laws to defining marriage with the bible. NC just added this christian ignorance to the state constitution last year.
All somewhat deniable of course, as the lines between political conservatism and religious fundamentalism are blurry.
When I was growing up in the 1960s and 1970s I was taught that conservatism was about being cautious about the rate of change and how one goes about it, more than about change itself. The idea of change being a Bad Thing in its own right -- an idea that has crept in during the past generation -- I believe comes mainly from the religious right ... but of course, I can't prove it and I don't know that anyone really can.
Blue laws and the like can be argued for without bringing god into it, and often are argued that way so that it is less obvious what the driving force is. The Defense of Marriage Act was more explicitly a creation of the religious right but this is not often so clear.
What we godless can do more than anything else, I think, is deny religion the unquestioned, deferential "free ride" it has had for most of human history -- to question, to probe, to insist on objective evidence and good standards of evidence. To ridicule that which is ridiculous. The more we do this, the less taboo it is for folks to wonder if the religious path is automatically well intentioned and sensible and safe.
I find this humorous because everything that was said does not apply to me. This is great =)
I don't know how accurate surveys are, so no, I wouldn't pull up a survey if I felt it would prove you wrong. You apparently don't know me. I'm not that type of person. But now I know who you are. I was very kind and friendly and couldn't understand how I could be such a threat. But now it's very clear, I see so much hate coming out of these posts. Who's to say you guys wouldn't slit my throat if you had the chance? This is truly alarming.
I don't watch FOX, by the way. I don't watch mainstream media because they are puppets. I choose alternative media.
Do you guys not know that it wasn't MY "religious" "title" that caused a war for 11+ years? My beliefs can NOT in any way be compared to Muslims. Do you not know that it was all a plot and 9/11 was a false flag? I can't clump every Christian into the same category as me, but the people who believe as I do know the truth about 9/11. And, if my sources are right, Obama is Muslim and the last I checked he is against Christianity. So there you see it, we are nothing alike.
What we godless can do more than anything else, I think, is deny religion the unquestioned, deferential "free ride" it has had for most of human history -- to question, to probe, to insist on objective evidence and good standards of evidence. To ridicule that which is ridiculous. The more we do this, the less taboo it is for folks to wonder if the religious path is automatically well intentioned and sensible and safe.
You know I just don't think 'religion' (and I should say 'religions') has gotten that 'free ride' far from it. It's been attacked, ridiculed, derided, lambasted and used by those who would want the earth and those in it to be their playground involving humanity. Why is it necessary that they be brought under 'objective evidence? Who is this tribunal? Who are these judges of beliefs whciha re a right ofindividuals? Ironically, those who judge want to corral and lasso the concept of freedom when it involves beliefs. Apparently, the fear of religion which I cannot help but pick up emanates from a weakness of 'other thinking' and a quest for some kind of 'order' between man and his beliefs particular those that are religious. Thus all this proscription. Just my take.
You know I just don't think 'religion' (and I should say 'religions') has gotten that 'free ride' far from it. It's been attacked, ridiculed, derided, lambasted and used by those who would want the earth and those in it to be their playground involving humanity. Why is it necessary that they be brought under 'objective evidence? Who is this tribunal? Who are these judges of beliefs which are a right of individuals? Ironically, those who judge want to corral and lasso the concept of freedom when it involves beliefs. Apparently, the fear of religion which I cannot help but pick up emanates from a weakness of 'other thinking' and a quest for some kind of 'order' between man and his beliefs particular those that are religious. Thus all this proscription. Just my take.
You do not belong to a persecuted, bedraggled minority. You belong to an entrenched system that binds people to itself, often on pain of eternal perdition. A system brimming with wealth and influence, whether we are talking St Peter's or televangelists. And as, for instance, the pedophile priest scandals show, brimming with a good degree of immunity to accountability, as well.
Yes, you can point to specific instances where Christians have been mistreated, imprisoned, and killed on various pretexts. And I can point to specific instances as well, where unbelievers or different-believers have had the same things done to them by church authorities. So what? Some people are corrupt and power hungry and sadistic and do bad things to others. Sometimes in the name of religion, sometimes in the name of irreligion or some competing "ism".
When I was a kid, a young missionary murdered by cannibals was held up to me as both a worthy hero and an example of persecution due to hatred of the gospel -- except that the truth is that he blundered into a situation where he frightened and offended people whose culture he didn't understand. They didn't even know the gospel so as to hate it, they just wanted to be left alone by the intruders with strange skin coming out of iron birds. This is how it always is with Christians and persecution -- they style themselves as selfless and loving and attacked for no reason. After all (they claim without evidence) -- they are about god's business.
At any rate -- there is no question who is in the majority in the US at least and who runs the greater risk of openly identifying with their (un)belief.
As to who is to judge ... society judges its members according to its morality.
As to why we need to be under objective evidence ... I don't even know where to begin to respond to that. When is it ever beneficial not to deal in reality? Why is it right to allow unsubstantiated thinking to influence public policy and public life? In another post today, someone claimed Obama is a Kenyan citizen and that 9/11 was a government conspiracy. While they are free to think that, they should not be free to overthrow the government or not pay taxes or whatever it is they want to do, unless they can successfully establish their contentions with corroborating evidence. It is no different just because we are talking religion.
I find this humorous because everything that was said does not apply to me. This is great =)
How do I know that? But at least I'm not assuming you're a murderer - unlike you who just wondered if I would slit your throat. You know, I've come across a lot of Christians who declare "peace and love," but I've noticed far too often that lurking beneath that facade is a rather dark pit. Maybe you have such a pit, perhaps not. But wondering if I would slit your throat - well, I think that approaches the dark pit I've referred to.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
You apparently don't know me. I'm not that type of person.
I already admitted that I don't know you and yet you're still taking what I said personally. I even clearly stated that I wasn't attacking you - and yet you're still internalizing everything I wrote and making it all about you instead of Christianity in general. And yet, through it all, you never did say whether or not you would have the heart and soul to stand against your own religion if it began violating the civil rights of non-believers.
Given your seeming hesitance to admit your stance on this one way or the other, I'm forced to believe that you would stand behind your religion no matter what it did to people like me - and you would justify it by convincing yourself that I'm a hateful murderer who would slit your throat and, therefore, deserve whatever atrocity your religion inflicted upon me. Kind of like what you're already doing in your post.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
But now I know who you are.
I was willing to admit that I don't know you. How about showing me the same respect? Because you don't know me from Eve, and reading a couple of forum posts doesn't even begin to cut the mustard in knowing who I am. BUT ... see here we go. Already you're claiming to know all about me, and this is precisely how the religious justify acts of cruelty. Now, let's move forward and I'll prove it.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
I was very kind and friendly and couldn't understand how I could be such a threat.
I was never unfriendly with you, JBrown, but I did answer your question honestly. Should I lie to you instead? Nor did I ever claim that you were a threat. All I said is that you could be a threat if you don't have the wherewithall to stand against your own religious beliefs should those beliefs turn ugly. And you managed to avoid answering that all-important question by complaining about how much hatred I apparently have. I know dodging and deflecting when I see it.
By the way, in your previous post, you wrote "Bring it on!" with a big smiley emoticon. Well, I brought it on.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
But now it's very clear, I see so much hate coming out of these posts. Who's to say you guys wouldn't slit my throat if you had the chance? This is truly alarming.
Now here's the proof I was eluding to just a few sentences ago. This is how many folks, especially the religious, justify doing horrible things to "others" - people who do not march in lockstep with their religious (and judging from the ending of your post - political) worldview. You just make these wild assumptions based on the flimsiest of evidence that those "others" are deserving of punishment and the abolishment of their freedoms. After all, it's a really short walk from wondering if we'd slit your throat to assuming we WILL, and therefore, need to be controlled immediately.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
I don't watch FOX, by the way. I don't watch mainstream media because they are puppets. I choose alternative media.
Let me guess -- people like Alex Jones and Prison Planet.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
Do you guys not know that it wasn't MY "religious" "title" that caused a war for 11+ years?
Are you sure about that? After all, we didn't go into Iraq because of 9/11 or Islamic terrorism. But that's for another thread.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
My beliefs can NOT in any way be compared to Muslims.
No? And why is that? Because you don't like Islam? Is that the root of your strident disclaimer? But more importantly is this: Do you really think that atheists see your religion as being all that different from Islam or any other religion out there? Of course we don't - which is part of the reason for our atheism. There's no reason to believe one religion over another; they can't all be true, but they can all be false.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
Do you not know that it was all a plot and 9/11 was a false flag?
I don't buy into conspiracy theories because they make claims that are almost as fantastical as religion and with about the same amount of substantive evidence.
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Originally Posted by JBrown0830
I can't clump every Christian into the same category as me, but the people who believe as I do know the truth about 9/11. And, if my sources are right, Obama is Muslim and the last I checked he is against Christianity. So there you see it, we are nothing alike.
Well, your sources are wrong and you get your information from places that are several orders of magnitude worse than Fox News. You go to the Tin Foil Hat Society to get your news.
Obama is a Muslim? Seriously? And he is against Christianity? Okay, let's hear all about why. Put some money on the table if you wish to go a few rounds with me on this subject - but not here. Send me a PM or start another thread. All I can say is that if you believe in this nonsense, then you are precisely the kind of Christian I was actually warning you of.
Because you obviously have a disdain for Muslims - which goes back to what I said earlier, about people like you who condemn others for believing differently. As for me, I might condemn others too but not for believing differently but because they want to rule the world and tell me what to do.
By the way, who cares if Obama is a Muslim? Notice in the U.S. Constitution (you know, that document you claim you would protect) explicitly states that there will be NO religious test to hold public office in the United States. That means it doesn't MATTER if Obama is a Muslim. Therefore, if you really love this country and the Constitution like you CLAIM you do, Obama's religious beliefs wouldn't even be an issue to you.
But they are. Thanks for proving the point I was making from the very beginning. It's always great when an opposing player scores one for the wrong team.
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