Bill Nye the Science Guy vs Ken Ham Young Earth Creationist 'debate' (Revelations, religions)
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Maybe the Zeitgeist movement was a lot bigger here in Canada then down in the States. It was all over Facebook and social media a few years ago. haven't seen much from it lately.
I'm guessing you guys are old (over 50). It was all over FB a couple years ago. At one time I even pointed out some of the obvious errors with their linking between Egyptian gods and Jesus, but they would have none of it, and accused of defending organized religion simply for pointing out obvious errors. I'm not bashing anyone, nor implying that atheists are less rational than theists. All I'm saying is that I reject the assertion that atheists are more logical and rational than theists. In my opinion atheists (in general) are just as susceptible to making errors in reason or being duped by scammers.
Cor..I remember being fifty...happy days....no woman was safe..
Ah. I have heard several arguments trying to make Jesus look like he was created wholesale out of previous god -myths.
Now I would argue that atheists, being more inclined to question and use reason and check claims, are less likely to be fooled by scammers, whereas the faithful or cultists, being prone to believe anything that even looks like it supports their case, will treat it like Holy Writ, even if it is demonstrably wrong, while anything that doesn't suit them is rejected out of hand as 'Opinion', no matter how good the support is.
Now, Atheists and even scientists may be tempted to get favourite theories into their heads and be tempted to defend them against all comers.
That said, the method will tend in the end to find what stands up as the best explanation for the data. Thus certainly science and I argue, atheism, is going to be more logical and rational than Faith - based approaches, and by and large (certainly in my experience) on an individual basis, too.
I'm guessing you guys are old (over 50). It was all over FB a couple years ago. At one time I even pointed out some of the obvious errors with their linking between Egyptian gods and Jesus, but they would have none of it, and accused of defending organized religion simply for pointing out obvious errors. I'm not bashing anyone, nor implying that atheists are less rational than theists. All I'm saying is that I reject the assertion that atheists are more logical and rational than theists. In my opinion atheists (in general) are just as susceptible to making errors in reason or being duped by scammers.
I think that some folks are just naturally talented at spotting incongruities - parts of a story that don't make any sense. For instance, I was called by a scammer that seemed legitimate until he wanted remote access to my computer. I realized at that point that I was being played - why would anyone need remote access when he could just tell me what to do? And an employee of Microsoft wouldn't ask that I download a third party program that would give him remote access.
Point being here is that what made a lot of atheists actually become atheists is that talent for skepticism and effortlessly spotting things that just don't make sense. A scammer might be able to string along people like me for a time, but unless their deception is completely foolproof and 100% logical, we're going to see through it. We don't have "faith" that the scammer is actually a legitimate person conducting business above board and honestly.
Atheism is just a "side effect," if you will, of a very critical mind - and when I say "critical," I don't mean suspicious, paranoid, pessimistic, or obstinate. What I mean is that many atheists have that talent for spotting holes and inconsistencies in any story - and that makes us atheists. We see religion for the scam that it is.
Thus, while a person with a critical mind can be taken for a ride by religion for a certain amount of time, sooner or later, that critical mind will begin asking, "Why do I beleive in this stuff?"
True beleivers, though, seem to lack this talent and can be fooled indefinately - even in the face of things that do not make sense.
Absolutely. We cannot go through life believing whatever we are told. We HAVE to be skeptical. Of course a worldview is needed, but just being spoonfed the first one and refusing to consider any other ever after is just self - delusion. We can do better than that and we human beans deserve better than that.
What we get- and I have to admit that atheism came first - reasoning came second - is a rational worldview- applied to everything. Atheism is just the rational view applied to the god-claim (and more broadly the claims of religion).
That is why the rather tricky question of whether we atheists believe in the supernatural or reject it out of hand is irrelevant. Unless they are related to the god-claim, the supernatural is not what atheists concern themselves with.
As rational - reasoners we apply the same method and find that there are a lot of unexplained events, uncheckable anecdotes and a lot of evidence of fraud. So we have to say 'Unsubstantiated' and reserve crediting or belief until better evidence is forthcoming.
We do the same as atheists as regards the god-claims.
I have to admit that the 'Living fossil' argument is the best one they have. If King crabs or sharks or crocodiles or Coelacanths or Salmanders with triangular heads are millions of years old-how come they are still around? why haven't they gone extinct?
The answer is that the species,if it is content in its environment and doesn't have any evolutionary pressure to adapt to changed conditions will continue unchanged (apart from micro-evolutionary changes - because the modern Coelacanth has changed from the prehistoric one) for millions of years.
In fact it seems to me that extinctions are father uncommon and apply mainly to large creatures.
The triassic extinction saw the end to the large reptiles and enabled the bird-hipped dinosaurs (small,like Coelaphysis (1), at the time) to expand in a 'Triassic explosion' into the ecological void, just as in their turn the Cretaceous extinction allowed small mammals and birds to expand in a miocene explosion into the large mammals and carnivorous birds of the Oligocene.
Now it seems that it was large mammals that seemed to go exinct, but small ones like insects, birds and small mammals did not. Indeed the sea-creatures carried on regardless,though it is a puzzle to me why sea dinosaurs-all of them - went extinct. I just state what the evidence says, not provide explanations for everything.
The point is that living fossils is not really a problem for evolution -theory or evidence - and bill Nye is not contradicting himself. Though this Living Fossil argument - refribbed into 'Animals all jumbled together' has been used (falsely) before. There is no real fossil evidence of all kinds of animals 'jumbled together'. The evidence of stratified fossils is that they evolved from simpler to more complex (or just larger) species, where they did evolve, that is.
Thus, while a person with a critical mind can be taken for a ride by religion for a certain amount of time, sooner or later, that critical mind will begin asking, "Why do I beleive in this stuff?"
True beleivers, though, seem to lack this talent and can be fooled indefinately - even in the face of things that do not make sense.
Shirina, there have been plenty of very very smart and critical thinkers from Christ's day to ours who were/are much more intelligent than you and I combined. They were great theologians and thinkers and didn't think they were "taken for a ride." So it seems to me your idea does not fit every shoe.
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