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Mordant is right. Science is constantly changing in light of new evidence being revealed. Scientists are constantly tweaking what we know as we make new discoveries. However its true to say there are still many gaps in our knowledge. Some of the gaps are explained here:
Thanks for all the responses so far.
I'll try to answer some of the questions. Thrillobyte, the 23andmeDNA test cost $99. It takes about 6 weeks before you receive your results. I got a very comprehensive summary of all kinds of things including a health summary which give personal traits, at risk health conditions (including cancer, Altzheimers, Parkinsons that sort of thing), inherited conditions, and response to known commonly used drugs etc.
Then my ancestry overview which for me pinpointed my ancestry fairly specifically I thought. My Neanderthal ancestry is much higher than average (I'm in the 99th percentile eek!) which could also be an indication that my ancestors hung about in Europe a lot, since Neanderthal bones have been mainly found in this region.
To summarise:
Health: 60 traits, 25 drug responses, 53 inherited conditions and 122 health risks (these range from elevated risk to decreased risk)
Ancestry composition: Ancestry Composition tells you what percent of your DNA comes from each of 31 populations worldwide, plus your Neanderthal Ancestry.
Here's a nice little video from the 23andme website to explain some of the migration of Modern humans (Homosapiens) from East Africa:
Modern Humans (Homosapiens) originated in Eastern Africa. Neanderthals ranged over east and South Africa, Europe and west Asia and developed as a separate species, although some scientists think they should be classified as a sub species of Homosapien. There is some debate going on as to whether HomoSapiens and Neanderthals mated.
Neanderthals are the closest evolutionary relatives of modern humans, but they went extinct about 30,000 years ago. The first Neanderthals arrived in Europe as early as 600,000 to 350,000 years ago. Neanderthals and Homo sapiens lived along side each other for thousands of years. Genetic evidence suggest that they may have interbred as traces of their DNA — between 1 percent and 4 percent — are found in all modern humans outside of Africa. We know this because scientists have been able to construct the Neanderthal genome sequence from bones found in Croatia.
However the shared DNA may be left over from an earlier ancestor:
Homosapiens and Neanderthals are thought to have diverged around 400,000 years ago from an earlier form called Homo heidelbergensis. They lived in Africa, Europe and western Asia from at least 600,000 years ago, and may date back 1,300,000 years. They survived until about 200,000 to 250,000 years ago.
From reconstruction here's how Homo heidelbergensis may have looked:
There is evidence they hunted, used tools, may have buried their dead and possibly had a rudimentary language.
Earlier than that we have Homo erectus, the earliest evidence of which dates from about 1.8 million years ago:
And then earlier than that we can go back to forms such as Australopithecus afarensis which lived between 3.9 and 2.9 million years ago.
What I'm trying to ascertain is, as a creationist, where would you would draw the line as to what you view as the first form of human being? How far back would you go? If you see Homosapien only as being human then what do you make of the other forms?
If you had a DNA test done and found you had Neanderthal DNA (as you absolutely would if you believe your heritage to be European / outside of Africa) what would you make of that?
In response to pastorALly, you have done far better than me. I was only able to go back about 300 years. All my Ancestors (so far) lived in exactly the same area. All working in things like upholstery and carpentry. I did the research many years ago before Ancestry.com and the like. I'm going to order an Ancestry.com DNA test as well and transfer my tree onto there - hopefully I'll be able to go further back. It will be interesting to see if I get the same results back. I bought my brother the Ancestry.com test for Christmas, but it didn't bring back nearly as detailed info as I had from 23andme (we wanted to compare the two).
Also thanks for your response about your congregation and faith v DNA migration. If they knew, do you think that would make them think about their origins?
I can't help but notice that only two people made an attempt to answer my questions; Vizio and pastorALly (thankyou). I am a little surprised since its not like you guys to be backwards in coming forward.
I also notice that since I posted this, a similar thread from 2007 has been revived - but that thread does not really answer my questions and is a little out of date.
I thought I'd separate out my original questions to make it clearer what I'm asking.
Given current evidence that all modern humans (Homo Sapiens) with a European Ancestry carry traces of Neanderthal DNA:
1. In your eyes, what do you see as being the first human?
(Examples, most recent first: Homosapien, Neanderthal, Homo Heidelbergensis, Homo Erectus, Australopithecus.)
2. If you take Homo sapien to be the first form of human, what do you make of the earlier forms and how do they tie in to the creation story?
3. Do you believe Adam and Eve originated in Africa?
4. As a Creationist do you see any conflict here with the Adam and Eve story? Is this a cause of concern or doubt in your mind that the bible stories may not be completely accurate or do you see no general conflict?
pastorALly indicated that his congregation probably didn't spend too much time thinking about it.
I notice in the other thread that most of us Creationist or otherwise, seem to agree that Homosapiens are the first modern humans and that we all agree on DNA evidence, so in light of this knowledge, what do you make of the questions posed?
Thank you in advance.
(PS. As a side note, my brother had his DNA results back from 23andme which are even more fascinating than mine, since women don't have a Y chromosome we only get half the information (from our maternal line) whereas men carry x and Y chromosomes so get a much fuller picture. If any one is interested I'm happy to share but would rather not distract from the thread too much.)
Eusebius as you consider us all to be primates, which species from the above examples do you consider to be human?
I believe we are humans. The Bible doesn't say we are primates or animals.
Just because there are people who categorize humans as primates does not mean we are offspring of chimps.
I believe we are humans. The Bible doesn't say we are primates or animals.
Just because there are people who categorize humans as primates does not mean we are offspring of chimps.
At some point a primate became upright (likely a mutation) and somehow became separated from others.
The upright posture was associated with rapid enlargement of the cranial vault over the years as clearly shown by the fossil record. The chimp has 24 pairs of chromosomes whereas man has 23 pairs. At this point mating between the early man and the chimp was impossible. The MAN remained a MAN and the chimp is still a chimp.
The original MAN was black, but became white as he migrated to Northern Europe. White skin is favorable in Northern climates because it facilitates the synthesis of Vit D in the skin. Dark skin is favorable to Africa and not good at all for Northern climate because vit D cannot be made due to the sun block effect of dark skin.
We are primates.
Last edited by Julian658; 02-20-2014 at 11:05 AM..
I believe we are humans. The Bible doesn't say we are primates or animals.
Just because there are people who categorize humans as primates does not mean we are offspring of chimps.
The bible doesn't say it but you did. Yesterday. Quite clearly.
Yesterday you agreed with Troutdude that all humans are primates.
Unfortunately the post no longer exists but many people will have seen it.
So perhaps if I can politely ask you the question again:
Eusebius, as you consider us all to be primates, which species from these examples do you consider to be human?
Homosapien, Neanderthal, Homo Heidelbergensis, Homo Erectus, Australopithecus.
Neanderthal were not any more pre-historic than our modern-day folks who live in the bush on some continents and still live a primitive lifestyle. They [Neanderthals] were just a bunch of inbreds.
Well, this time your typical rhetoric will not work.
If you walk on two legs I have proven the point*
* The proof assumes that Eusebius is a primate.
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