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Because man sinned (here on Earth) and brought curse on himself. In Heaven, there's no sin because Christ paid the penalty.
Christ paid the penalty, but there's still sin on earth.
You haven't gotten around the basic problem here. You have said that free will means sin and suffering, that there can't be joy without heartache. There is no sin and suffering in heaven. Either it wasn't necessary on earth, or heaven as described can't exist.
You probably don't fully comprehend this because it's not something most people would actually think about.
BUT ... everything you do in this world, and I do mean everything, is to improve your current state of existence. Whether you're scratching an itch, fidgeting in your chair, rollling over in bed, finding a new job, getting into a romantic relationship, having children, watching television, eating a meal ...
That's right, everything you do is to improve something.
Therefore, in a heaven where everything is already perfect, you wouldn't even have a reason to move. You wouldn't even need to blink. You could just sit there in a quasi-comatose state, perfectly still, for all eternity. Your brain, such as it is in the afterlife, would cease to function, and without problems to solve, higher-order thinking would discontinue. In just a few years, our heavenly selves would be reduced to useless, child-like "things" with the cognitive skills of a dog.
You probably don't fully comprehend this because it's not something most people would actually think about.
BUT ... everything you do in this world, and I do mean everything, is to improve your current state of existence. Whether you're scratching an itch, fidgeting in your chair, rollling over in bed, finding a new job, getting into a romantic relationship, having children, watching television, eating a meal ...
That's right, everything you do is to improve something.
Therefore, in a heaven where everything is already perfect, you wouldn't even have a reason to move. You wouldn't even need to blink. You could just sit there in a quasi-comatose state, perfectly still, for all eternity. Your brain, such as it is in the afterlife, would cease to function, and without problems to solve, higher-order thinking would discontinue. In just a few years, our heavenly selves would be reduced to useless, child-like "things" with the cognitive skills of a dog.
Now, if that's heaven, no thanks.
There will be more to do in Heaven than blink your eyes, that is for sure. At the least peop;e will not suffer, hunger and hate each other.
There will be more to do in Heaven than blink your eyes, that is for sure. At the least peop;e will not suffer, hunger and hate each other.
No, they will just hate themselves, for now they have to kowtow to the big guy 24/7/forever and ever and ever. No shuffle board, no beer break, grovel to the big guy, and be very careful what you say.
You probably don't fully comprehend this because it's not something most people would actually think about.
BUT ... everything you do in this world, and I do mean everything, is to improve your current state of existence. Whether you're scratching an itch, fidgeting in your chair, rollling over in bed, finding a new job, getting into a romantic relationship, having children, watching television, eating a meal ...
That's right, everything you do is to improve something.
Therefore, in a heaven where everything is already perfect, you wouldn't even have a reason to move. You wouldn't even need to blink. You could just sit there in a quasi-comatose state, perfectly still, for all eternity. Your brain, such as it is in the afterlife, would cease to function, and without problems to solve, higher-order thinking would discontinue. In just a few years, our heavenly selves would be reduced to useless, child-like "things" with the cognitive skills of a dog.
Now, if that's heaven, no thanks.
I'm going to differ with you on this one, S. It is too close to "we need suffering to make happiness meaningful" excuse that theists use to argue for what they see as the "necessity" of suffering.
When you remove suffering, you still have degrees of pleasure and happiness, personal preferences and curiosity as motivators. And my Christian Overlords never presented heaven to me as simply sitting on clouds strumming harps; it was suggested (with not even Biblical justification of course, but what the heck) that we would be free to explore the universe, perhaps help out on other worlds still under the curse of sin, perhaps be demigod-like rulers over some planet or other ... all nonsense of course but it does illustrate that one CAN construct heaven in terms of a "great big beautiful universe" presided over by a loving god with nothing in the way of all the delights he wants to share freely with you. I recall as a child some other kid asking, "will there be fried chicken in heaven?" and the teacher saying, "of course there will, if you want it".
The problem is that this sort of scenario is fine with many Christians, apart maybe from those fire and brimstone extremists -- so long as it's confined to heaven. On earth, though, we can't be having or working toward anything remotely like the vision of heaven I grew up with. Suffering is NECESSARY here, or else we'd be ROBOTS with no FREE WILL. The true reason it's necessary here is that it dilutes the carrot AND the stick. If we don't need suffering, we don't need to be "good" to be worthy of escaping it in heaven; and if life is pretty good here, and we don't need heaven, how bad could hell really be? It calls everything into question.
[quote=mordant;33601336]I'm going to differ with you on this one, S. It is too close to "we need suffering to make happiness meaningful" excuse that theists use to argue for what they see as the "necessity" of suffering.
mordant,I'm trying to understand why it is that we need to suffer for anything in order to appreciate the life that we do have, can we not just enjoy life as it is without the suffering. I know there are many people who go through life enjoying what they do have and never suffer, so why do we have to suffer?
I'm going to differ with you on this one, S. It is too close to "we need suffering to make happiness meaningful" excuse that theists use to argue for what they see as the "necessity" of suffering.
No, I don't think we need suffering. What we need is our own personalized afterlife, one we create with our own minds and imaginations. This idea of a "one size fits all" paradise just doesn't work. All of us need different things, and for some, it might be work, others it might be art, still others it might exploration and mystery. We are so diverse between one person and another that a big heaven that encompasses us all is ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
And my Christian Overlords never presented heaven to me as simply sitting on clouds strumming harps; it was suggested (with not even Biblical justification of course, but what the heck) that we would be free to explore the universe, perhaps help out on other worlds still under the curse of sin, perhaps be demigod-like rulers over some planet or other ... all nonsense of course but it does illustrate that one CAN construct heaven in terms of a "great big beautiful universe" presided over by a loving god with nothing in the way of all the delights he wants to share freely with you. I recall as a child some other kid asking, "will there be fried chicken in heaven?" and the teacher saying, "of course there will, if you want it".
Yeah, I used to call this the "Q Theory," whereby we all become like the character "Q" from Star Trek. We're a quasi-omnipotent being gallivanting around the universe doing what we wish (for the most part). Heaven was always portrayed to me as a place of perfection, and if that were the case, there really can't be different shades of pleasure. If one was "lesser" than the other, it wouldn't be perfect and thus not included in heaven.
Heh, it's funny how the concept of Heaven is left conspicuously blank in the Bible? And so we all get a slightly different version of what it means to be in paradise. I suppose that's because what we most desire is extremely specific to the individual - one would be hard-pressed to find a paradise befitting everyone. Thus the Biblical authors left it vague so that someone wouldn't read the description of Heaven and think, "Damn, I don't want to go there!"
Hell, though, is much more specific because there are things all of us would want to avoid - pain and torture ranking very high on the list. It is universal across cultures and times. A citizen of Rome would no more like to be burned forever than a citizen of New York City.
It just shows how the concepts of heaven and hell try to play on our worst fears and our biggest desires, but leaves out all the details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
The problem is that this sort of scenario is fine with many Christians, apart maybe from those fire and brimstone extremists -- so long as it's confined to heaven. On earth, though, we can't be having or working toward anything remotely like the vision of heaven I grew up with. Suffering is NECESSARY here, or else we'd be ROBOTS with no FREE WILL. The true reason it's necessary here is that it dilutes the carrot AND the stick. If we don't need suffering, we don't need to be "good" to be worthy of escaping it in heaven; and if life is pretty good here, and we don't need heaven, how bad could hell really be? It calls everything into question.
I think the presence of suffering makes us more like robots than the absence of it would. Because of our survival instinct and the strong desire to avoid pain (both physical and emotional), our behaviors become more easy to predict - in essence, more robotic. We pretty much know that most people will take the path that hurts the least and is less risk to life and limb. I know that isn't 100%, but I think it's fairly accurate.
A lack of suffering means we can go in whichever direction we wish, make decisions based on a more logical premise than simply basing it on an avoidance of pain. We sure would be nicer people if we didn't have to worry about suffering - and whether or not everyone we meet will cause it. If we weren't so paralyzed by the fear of suffering, we wouldn't have so much need to fear each other.
I'm going to differ with you on this one, S. It is too close to "we need suffering to make happiness meaningful" excuse that theists use to argue for what they see as the "necessity" of suffering.
mordant,I'm trying to understand why it is that we need to suffer for anything in order to appreciate the life that we do have, can we not just enjoy life as it is without the suffering. I know there are many people who go through life enjoying what they do have and never suffer, so why do we have to suffer?
As I'm sure you're aware, ptsum, like you I don't believe suffering is somehow necessary. I think that suffering is so pervasive that we're inured to it, and we can't imagine or hope for or work for a life without it.
I don't agree that anyone goes through life never having to suffer, just that some go through life with relatively little suffering and relatively a lot of either getting most of what they care about compared to what they were led to expect, and/or just being blessed with ridiculous amounts of joy (endorphins). As such, their suffering is fairly easy to rationalize and they have the potential to be free of both regrets and disappointments.
Others just have tremendous drive, determination and iron strength, such that they can absorb a lot more discomfort than is usual. This is one reason why good health can cover a multitude of other miseries in life; you can use all your life force to overcome.
As to why some people THINK we need suffering ... I believe that it is a way to turn suffering into a sort of negative currency, such that if we can at least appear to have less of it and others more of it, we can tell ourselves and others that we're better and have more of god's favor. It's sick and twisted, but is in my experience a common thought.
Also, if suffering is either inevitable and/or some sort of just punishment from on high, it releases us from any personal responsibility to care about or do anything about it. It allows us to be indifferent to suffering so long as it's far away or long ago or outside our extended family or community -- or at least it is tamped down enough that we can ignore it. Do many people in North America loose sleep over seeing television images of people shooting each other in, say, the Ukraine? That's someone else's problem. Stuff happens.
Or you can go the Buddhist route and just let go of any expectations for particular outcomes so that your emotional climate is unmoved by either pleasure OR pain. Nice if you can pull it off, I guess.
Just for the record: if there were zero suffering in the world there would still be different intensities of pleasure, contentment and happiness, plenty of interests to choose from, plenty of companions to choose from, etc., lots to discover and do. Plenty of contrasts. We can and should reduce suffering where and when we can as it is NEGATIVE enjoyment, and therefore DETRACTS from happiness. Suffering doesn't participate in creating happiness; it NEGATES happiness.
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