Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If this bill was truly about "protecting" churches, then it would not specifically include "Nonreligious assembly or institution(s)" Or ""Person" ANY INDIVIDUAL, ASSOCIATION, PARTNERSHIP, CORPORATION, CHURCH, RELIGIOUS ASSEMBLY OR INSTITUTION, ESTATE, TRUST, FOUNDATION OR OTHER LEGAL ENTITY.
So, what you believe is not what is actually written in this bill.
Exactly! This bill is not the artist and the gay couple. It's an anything goes bill. Apples and oranges.
Does that business have street parking, that tax dollars fund? Do the roads that we all pay for provide access for their goods and services to travel and for their customers to get to their establishment? Do the publicly-funded courts settle business disputes and provide a legal framework which makes it difficult for vendors and customers to fail to honor contracts? Do public police and fire departments protect their places of business? Do they deposit their money in federally-insured bank accounts? Does the state license their drivers and other professionals? Do they have bankruptcy and limited liability protection through the government? Are they profiting from products or creative materials with patent or copyright protection?
Those are just a few examples of how businesses exist and thrive as part of the social contract. We have decided as a society that we value capitalism, and we use our pooled resources to help businesses survive. To act as though business owners are entirely independent operators whose decisions are not to be interfered with is to ignore the reality of what we all provide to businesses. And to say that business owners can discriminate on the basis of a trait is to support something that is fundamentally against what the country who supports them is all about.
I understand, but, just how far are you willing to go with this?
How far is an atheist suppose to drive for some milk and bread? You do realize how far some of us might have to go to get a yummy burger don't ya? They wouldn't care if we never ate again AJ.
Have to add: Do you think the majority of fairy believers care if atheists, or gays get to live a comfortable life?
Yes. I believe a majority would serve anyone. Realistically, I've never been asked about my religious affiliation before being served at any store. The only time this question has come up was when I asked a local pastor to marry my wife and me 33 years ago, and understandably so. I don't feel that he should be forced to marry us, if he knew then what I was to become.
Does that business have street parking, that tax dollars fund? Do the roads that we all pay for provide access for their goods and services to travel and for their customers to get to their establishment? Do the publicly-funded courts settle business disputes and provide a legal framework which makes it difficult for vendors and customers to fail to honor contracts? Do public police and fire departments protect their places of business? Do they deposit their money in federally-insured bank accounts? Does the state license their drivers and other professionals? Do they have bankruptcy and limited liability protection through the government? Are they profiting from products or creative materials with patent or copyright protection?
Those are just a few examples of how businesses exist and thrive as part of the social contract. We have decided as a society that we value capitalism, and we use our pooled resources to help businesses survive. To act as though business owners are entirely independent operators whose decisions are not to be interfered with is to ignore the reality of what we all provide to businesses. And to say that business owners can discriminate on the basis of a trait is to support something that is fundamentally against what the country who supports them is all about.
Businesses pay their share, if not more, of taxes, including providing jobs where employees pay those same taxes and helping to maintain a vibrant economy. This relationship is not some abstract social contract but merely based upon providing services in exchange for other services or tendered representations of services. Burdensome rules and regulations aren't designed for fairness, as we all know, but are utilized to line certain pockets, as compensation for favors, and to buy votes.
Oh you think we've advanced past that, do you? Well then, why is this law even being considered, then? RIGHT ... it's because people want to discriminate! They want to have power over someone else and they want to exert it. Makes them feel as if they're doing something for the "cause" ... whatever cause that might be.
The US Army marched into Mexico City once already. We could have had the entirety of Mexico annexed to the USA right then and there. The Polk Administration fabricated a reason to go to war, we did, conquered Mexico ... and then like a stunted fish, threw it back in the water. We understood even then that adding Mexico would be nothing but a headache down the road, so we just took what is now the US southwest instead.
We tried taking Canada during the War of 1812 ... didn't work out so well.
Could we do it now? Sure ... but why bother? Mexico is a snake pit of drug cartels, corruption, and poverty. Canada pretty much does our bidding anyway. There are other ways of dominating besides military might. The strong almost always prey on the weak providing the weak have something of value. That predation is not always a punch in the nose. Sometimes it is deception, manipulation, guile, trickery, intimidation ... you get the idea.
When it comes to homosexuality? No, I DON'T have much faith in my fellow man. Now, if we allowed them to get married, THAT would be grounds for faith. Instead, I keep hearing people saying utterly despicable things about homosexuals, and with at least 32 states banning gay marriage, do you really expect me, or anyone else, to think anti-gay people are going to happily serve homosexuals?
I mean ... WHY do they even want this law in the first place? Do you think they want the right to discriminate because they don't plan to discriminate?
Actually, I predict actions based on historical precedent. I'm actually pretty well trained in historiography, so I know how to take myself out of the equation when making my predictions. That's why I'll refer to Americans as "they" instead of "we" most of the time.
And I wouldn't be surprised if we did sink.
I think this line of reasoning is wrong Shirina.
In already put forth my argument in the past...and I feel it reasonably puts forth the proof the general population is not REALLY comprised of the evil dictators some would try to claim them to be.
I don't see the huge "threat" of religion in the U.S. in these current times...not like what is put forth by some. Some even say the religious would make this a theocracy if they could.
But, if we really think about it..they COULD do that...even with the current system. It isn't like they already aren't "organized" to act en mass if that was their true propensity.
With numbers like they have (80% of the electorate) they could vote out whoever they want out, and vote in whoever they want in...at the smallest local level to the national level. They could so heavily skew the Federal Government they could pass any and all legislation/laws they wanted...even amend the Constitution to whatever they wanted it to say we had to do/be...override any Presidential veto if they hadn't voted their own person in yet.
BUT...even though they easily COULD...they DON'T. SO...If they are REALLY like some here claim...why haven't they done that?
Though I will warn the Anti-Theist genre of Atheists..."push" them and "contest" them at your sure peril.
At this point they are not yet annoyed enough to "take action". But I predict...if they are continued to be what they see as "Forced to go against their sacred beliefs"...they will retaliate once they have had enough.
I've written about this many times...and I do agree that it is basic human nature to have your way if you can get it or compel it...and all the more when you are being opposed.
A few more rulings by government officials telling private business persons that they have to do business with people they don't want to do business with...and you will see them get together and act to change it.
This government is a "Majority Rules" system...and they will vote to throw out the people that they don't want...and vote in the people that will vote their agenda.
For example---Don't use the government to force the religious/strict-hetero bakery owners to bake a cake for the homo wedding...just have homos start a bakery to serve that market or go where the owners don't care.
Just like they did within the bar/tavern and nightclub industry...they created their own places ("gay" bars) to do business...they didn't cause problems by legally forcing the acceptance of their presence at the places they knew would take exception.
I've been in the porn business for almost 30 years...I don't try to legally force the local religious organizations to sell me advertising space in their brochures...even though I know that is an excellent market for me (that's funny...but true)...just to attempt to have my way about it. I'm sure I could raise a legal stink about it...but I don't, because I have more sense than that.
Even though they regularly put fliers on the staff and customers cars to "repent from their sinful/lustful ways and be *righteous*".
Believe me...if this kinda stuff keeps up it is gonna get really REALLY ugly.
The government is overstepping its boundaries. They need to keep out of this...before the system we have is used against them.
Yes. I believe a majority would serve anyone. Realistically, I've never been asked about my religious affiliation before being served at any store. The only time this question has come up was when I asked a local pastor to marry my wife and me 33 years ago, and understandably so. I don't feel that he should be forced to marry us, if he knew then what I was to become.
Well, I get it and I agree with you on most things we discuss here on this forum, I don't agree with much that takes away our freedoms, but, under this bill if I didn't disclose that I was gay, atheists, or whatever the owner deemed unacceptable by God he could sue me for false presentation. So, I could hide to have the same conveniences as everyone else, but, I could be found out and sued for harming the Theists.
It just goes beyond, by allowing others freedom to discriminate based on what a God I have no chance to talk to says. It takes away the freedom to have a civil society, which to me is the most important freedom of all because without it some people would lead a miserable life and could be dominated by Theist belief. Seeing I'm atheist and a woman, and we all know how God feels about women, I can't enjoy the passing of this bill. I have to hope it doesn't go through. But, I do get what your saying personally, as I am an independent voter, like my privacy and my hobbies. I just don't see this as the same thing.
I'm not defending my right to own a gun here, I'm defending my right to live with equal freedoms others enjoy. I want to live my life like the rest of America, I can't live my life defined by someone else's beliefs, Good God !!!! What if they deem atheists unable to own a gun because we are the most untrusted group by Theists in the country? It just leaves a lot of room and it's giving me heart burn. lol
Yes, I'm "what ifing" all over the place, I know I am over exerting myself but I can only imagine what this could lead to. If this bill leads to this much guessing then I think it's a bad one. No protections at all with this law. None.
I think this line of reasoning is wrong Shirina.
In already put forth my argument in the past...and I feel it reasonably puts forth the proof the general population is not REALLY comprised of the evil dictators some would try to claim them to be.
I don't see the huge "threat" of religion in the U.S. in these current times...not like what is put forth by some. Some even say the religious would make this a theocracy if they could.
But, if we really think about it..they COULD do that...even with the current system. It isn't like they already aren't "organized" to act en mass if that was their true propensity.
With numbers like they have (80% of the electorate) they could vote out whoever they want out, and vote in whoever they want in...at the smallest local level to the national level. They could so heavily skew the Federal Government they could pass any and all legislation/laws they wanted...even amend the Constitution to whatever they wanted it to say we had to do/be...override any Presidential veto if they hadn't voted their own person in yet.
BUT...even though they easily COULD...they DON'T. SO...If they are REALLY like some here claim...why haven't they done that? This thread is about them doing just what you claim they won't and don't. I surely don't have to list the numerous examples of them trying to do just what you say they willingly don't do I????
Though I will warn the Anti-Theist genre of Atheists..."push" them and "contest" them at your sure peril.
At this point they are not yet annoyed enough to "take action". But I predict...if they are continued to be what they see as "Forced to go against their sacred beliefs"...they will retaliate once they have had enough. Oh Jesus, really!!!! Thanks for the threat but I don't have to allow them the freedom to discriminate at will so they don't take me all the way down Goldie Rule.
I've written about this many times...and I do agree that it is basic human nature to have your way if you can get it or compel it...and all the more when you are being opposed.
A few more rulings by government officials telling private business persons that they have to do business with people they don't want to do business with...and you will see them get together and act to change it.
Again, see number 2.....
No need to answer the in between threats of chaos from the Theists majority looming over my head.
Believe me...if this kinda stuff keeps up it is gonna get really REALLY ugly.
The government is overstepping its boundaries. They need to keep out of this...before the system we have is used against them.
You have so proved my point beyond a shadow I almost feel like giving you a rep Goldie!!
Businesses pay their share, if not more, of taxes, including providing jobs where employees pay those same taxes and helping to maintain a vibrant economy. This relationship is not some abstract social contract but merely based upon providing services in exchange for other services or tendered representations of services. Burdensome rules and regulations aren't designed for fairness, as we all know, but are utilized to line certain pockets, as compensation for favors, and to buy votes.
Do you really think you can reason with a Theist that think the majority of this country that see's their Gods dominating rules above and beyond societies laws? If they were free to use their Gods rules instead of Americas general rules of protection against bigotry do you think they would pass for money??? Do you not know any Mormons? They would survive just fine with Mormon only patrons, they don't need us to make money. That's the point, we could be gone tomorrow and it wouldn't put a dent in their wallets. This is why civil law exists. So that large majorities can't wipe out small minorities at will. I admire your trust in making a buck, but I think you need to do the math here.
I think this line of reasoning is wrong Shirina.
In already put forth my argument in the past...and I feel it reasonably puts forth the proof the general population is not REALLY comprised of the evil dictators some would try to claim them to be.
I don't see the huge "threat" of religion in the U.S. in these current times...not like what is put forth by some. Some even say the religious would make this a theocracy if they could.
But, if we really think about it..they COULD do that...even with the current system. It isn't like they already aren't "organized" to act en mass if that was their true propensity.
With numbers like they have (80% of the electorate) they could vote out whoever they want out, and vote in whoever they want in...at the smallest local level to the national level. They could so heavily skew the Federal Government they could pass any and all legislation/laws they wanted...even amend the Constitution to whatever they wanted it to say we had to do/be...override any Presidential veto if they hadn't voted their own person in yet.
BUT...even though they easily COULD...they DON'T. SO...If they are REALLY like some here claim...why haven't they done that?
Though I will warn the Anti-Theist genre of Atheists..."push" them and "contest" them at your sure peril.
At this point they are not yet annoyed enough to "take action". But I predict...if they are continued to be what they see as "Forced to go against their sacred beliefs"...they will retaliate once they have had enough.
I've written about this many times...and I do agree that it is basic human nature to have your way if you can get it or compel it...and all the more when you are being opposed.
A few more rulings by government officials telling private business persons that they have to do business with people they don't want to do business with...and you will see them get together and act to change it.
This government is a "Majority Rules" system...and they will vote to throw out the people that they don't want...and vote in the people that will vote their agenda.
For example---Don't use the government to force the religious/strict-hetero bakery owners to bake a cake for the homo wedding...just have homos start a bakery to serve that market or go where the owners don't care.
Just like they did within the bar/tavern and nightclub industry...they created their own places ("gay" bars) to do business...they didn't cause problems by legally forcing the acceptance of their presence at the places they knew would take exception.
I've been in the porn business for almost 30 years...I don't try to legally force the local religious organizations to sell me advertising space in their brochures...even though I know that is an excellent market for me (that's funny...but true)...just to attempt to have my way about it. I'm sure I could raise a legal stink about it...but I don't, because I have more sense than that.
Even though they regularly put fliers on the staff and customers cars to "repent from their sinful/lustful ways and be *righteous*".
Believe me...if this kinda stuff keeps up it is gonna get really REALLY ugly. The government is overstepping its boundaries. They need to keep out of this...before the system we have is used against them.
I agree with this. We have a free market, so if someone doesn't want to serve you, just go to another establishment, write a bad review, and warn others not to go there. I would never force someone to serve me, I would go to their competitor and give business where I'm welcomed. We have the freedom to do that!
Sometimes I wonder if gays purposefully go after Christian establishments just to start a controversy and drama. Now we all have to pay the price of this unstable mindset by new laws that invite discrimination.
Businesses pay their share, if not more, of taxes, including providing jobs where employees pay those same taxes and helping to maintain a vibrant economy. This relationship is not some abstract social contract but merely based upon providing services in exchange for other services or tendered representations of services. Burdensome rules and regulations aren't designed for fairness, as we all know, but are utilized to line certain pockets, as compensation for favors, and to buy votes.
Our federal, state, and local governments are not set up to be even exchanges. (I understand that you may think it should be that way.) We give to the collective good, and we make collective decisions about how that money is spent. And our collective decisions reflect our collective values.
Not being allowed to refuse service based on a human trait is not a burdensome rule.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
