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Ok so I've grown up in the church, and I do so much for it, in fact I still have some influence among young adults In the church arena. However I have had some misfortune with God and it has led me to question a great deal. It all started with my 1 and only dream and passion, in which i kept God first in, I felt that if I prayed and done what I was supposed to, have faith all that, my prayers would surely get answered, for i did read that if I ask I should receive.......but I never received. People would tell me, "it may not be God's will" which led me to wonder, then why did the bible say I would have it if I asked for it? I prayed for understanding, but all that became clear is all the other misunderstandings to me. I really want to believe and I have tried to start over but every effort puts me back into my questions and wonders which cloud my spiritual growth. Can I just get some feedback on a couple of questions and how I can try to mute my doubts ?
1. If God loves everyone, and advocates loving your enemy, why does he send people to hell? How is that love?
2. If God is all knowing then how can a human get off his plan? Wouldn't he know everything you do before you do it, and you doing that would be part of his plan?
3. If God is all knowing why would he create evil ? From my understanding he is the only thing capable of creation
4. If God loves everybody why does he insist that children are born that cannot be fed?
5. Why do Muslims who tend to be much more devoted to serving God all go to hell than the half hearted Christian who merely believes Jesus was their savior
6. Why when John 3:16 was written it did not include the fact that "you also have to strive to be like Christ" ?
7. why does God create people he knows will be evil ? Does he not love the world ?
Please can someone clear some of these up?
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. Later I came to realize that everything I learned there wasn't real. I want to be upfront about that, and if you only want advice from believers you should ignore this post. Otherwise, I think I can clear some things up for you.
I think it's really important to be honest with yourself. Why did you become a Christian in the first place? If you're like most people you became a Christian for the same reasons a Muslim becomes a Muslim and a Buddhist becomes Buddhist. You simply took the religion that your family and community gave you. Had you been born in India, you would be Hindu. Thailand you would be Buddhist. Saudi Arabi you would be Muslim. You would feel exactly the same way you do now, except it would be about a completely different religion. So you didn't choose to become a Christian, you choose to become religious. Christianity was the only option you were willing to consider.
The point is that your religion is starting to not make sense to you because "making sense" was never why you joined your religion in the first place. I know everyone likes to believe they had a personal one-on-one experience with their god(s), but did they really? I know that when I was a fundamentalist I would say things like "I can feel the Lord working in this room," but honestly I never did. I never really felt anything. I was only saying that because I was afraid that not feeling it meant I would go to hell. Maybe you've experienced the same thing.
Did you ever notice that in churches where people speak in tongues, everyone agrees that the holy spirit fills people and causes them to speak in tongues? Everyone starts rolling around on the floor and speaking a weird language. But oddly enough, in other churches no one speaks in tongues at all. Is one church holier than the other? No, everyone in both churches is simply acting the way they think they are supposed to act, making it up because they are afraid to admit to themselves that they don't feel what they think they are supposed to fill.
The same thing probably has happened to you. You didn't really have a personal experience with God, and neither did anyone else regardless of what they told you. You became a Christian purely because that's how you grew up.
That being the case, maybe it's time to really start examining the bible and Christianity to see if it makes sense. Is it the best way to describe the world we live in? I know that is hard, because it puts you in jeopardy of becoming a non-believer, and you have been taught that non-believers burn in hell. But what if it's not true?
Bare this in mind, the bible is just a collection of writings that a catholic group put together about 1600 years ago. They had a big meeting, took a vote, and decide which letters and writings should be include. Some narrowly lost out, while a few barely made it in. So you are putting a lot of faith in those catholic editors to have choosen the correct writing for you to study. But maybe they were wrong? Maybe they were no more holy than the religious leaders of today, subject to all the same politics and mistakes.
Once you really start thinking about it, the narrative of the bible doesn't make much sense. God is punishing all mankind for Adam and Eve eating some fruit. Is that fair? But wait, he decided he would spare us, which is nice, but only because we murdered his son on the cross?!?! How does that follow? Why would killing his son make him forgive us for eating his fruit? Why wouldn't he just decide that we could be forgiven for the whole fruit thing and move on? You see, the very basic premise and main plot-line of the bible doesn't make any sense.
Now, if you start thinking about it more, you'll see that the whole thing was really just a bunch of random writings from some Bedouin guys from 2000 years ago. It was written over hundreds of years, and the writers didn't know they were supposed to be making a book, so the story is really disjointed. Dig a little deeper and you'll find that much of the bible is just the regurgitation of ancient myths and story telling.
But now, to answer your question directly: Prayer doesn't work. Regardless of what the bible says, prayer won't move mountains. It won't heal the sick. It's only power comes from whatever mild benefit you get from believing in it. But it won't cure cancer, make your teeth whiter, give you a fuller set of hair, etc. By praying, you are simply talking to yourself.
Anyway, that's my opinion. Good luck in your search for clarity.
Ok so I've grown up in the church, and I do so much for it, in fact I still have some influence among young adults In the church arena. However I have had some misfortune with God and it has led me to question a great deal. It all started with my 1 and only dream and passion, in which i kept God first in, I felt that if I prayed and done what I was supposed to, have faith all that, my prayers would surely get answered, for i did read that if I ask I should receive.......but I never received. People would tell me, "it may not be God's will" which led me to wonder, then why did the bible say I would have it if I asked for it? I prayed for understanding, but all that became clear is all the other misunderstandings to me. I really want to believe and I have tried to start over but every effort puts me back into my questions and wonders which cloud my spiritual growth. Can I just get some feedback on a couple of questions and how I can try to mute my doubts ?
1. If God loves everyone, and advocates loving your enemy, why does he send people to hell? How is that love?
2. If God is all knowing then how can a human get off his plan? Wouldn't he know everything you do before you do it, and you doing that would be part of his plan?
3. If God is all knowing why would he create evil ? From my understanding he is the only thing capable of creation
4. If God loves everybody why does he insist that children are born that cannot be fed?
5. Why do Muslims who tend to be much more devoted to serving God all go to hell than the half hearted Christian who merely believes Jesus was their savior
6. Why when John 3:16 was written it did not include the fact that "you also have to strive to be like Christ" ?
7. why does God create people he knows will be evil ? Does he not love the world ?
Please can someone clear some of these up?
First: Welcome to the board Db, you're gonna like it...it's great.
I hope to help to clear up your confusion a little.
That "Biblegod" (YHWH, Jehovah, etc) guy...the supposedly SuperOmniEverything Dude...that still messes everyone up and/or kills them, even though he loves them...NO SUCH ENTITY EXISTS.
The Bible has some really cool philosophies (some of the best like, "Love Each Other") for human conduct and interaction...but much of what is written in it has been twisted, adulterated, and polluted by greedy, evil men on a quest for power and money.
If you are looking for spiritual growth get more into some kind of concept more along the lines of a Native American spiritual philosophy, or check out pantheism/panentheism...or just contemplate on the example of Jesus.
Remember "GOD" is not a name...it's a TITLE...and it can be assigned to anything anyone perceives to be such.
Once you are able to appreciate the Godly qualities of all that exists...you will come to discover that the Deities of organized religions are all just metaphorical representations of some mens perceptions of God...and not really actual entities. Some are REALLY cool metaphorical reps (I really dig Thor and Venus)...but that is all they are. Same with Jehovah, Allah, and the rest.
Also...there is the concept of Atheism as well...everything just is what it is, no God of any sort involved. It is a very logical and reasonable viewpoint.
Stick around...read a lot of the posts...take it all in. There are a lot of very sharp and interesting people and concepts that float around these threads. It might even help you find your "way".
Ok so I've grown up in the church, and I do so much for it, in fact I still have some influence among young adults In the church arena. However I have had some misfortune with God and it has led me to question a great deal. It all started with my 1 and only dream and passion, in which i kept God first in, I felt that if I prayed and done what I was supposed to, have faith all that, my prayers would surely get answered, for i did read that if I ask I should receive.......but I never received. People would tell me, "it may not be God's will" which led me to wonder, then why did the bible say I would have it if I asked for it? I prayed for understanding, but all that became clear is all the other misunderstandings to me. I really want to believe and I have tried to start over but every effort puts me back into my questions and wonders which cloud my spiritual growth. Can I just get some feedback on a couple of questions and how I can try to mute my doubts ?
1. If God loves everyone, and advocates loving your enemy, why does he send people to hell? How is that love?
2. If God is all knowing then how can a human get off his plan? Wouldn't he know everything you do before you do it, and you doing that would be part of his plan?
3. If God is all knowing why would he create evil ? From my understanding he is the only thing capable of creation
4. If God loves everybody why does he insist that children are born that cannot be fed?
5. Why do Muslims who tend to be much more devoted to serving God all go to hell than the half hearted Christian who merely believes Jesus was their savior
6. Why when John 3:16 was written it did not include the fact that "you also have to strive to be like Christ" ?
7. why does God create people he knows will be evil ? Does he not love the world ?
Please can someone clear some of these up?
Although I confess epistemological agnosticism, and belief in the agnosticism of all humanity, I will try to answer your questions from the pro-masculinity theists' perspectives that I have come across.
1. A) God can do as he sees fit, God knows what he is doing. B) God doesn't send people to hell, he just gives people the freedom to deny him and not be rescued from falling into it. C) love is just, so the wicked must be punished. D) God doesn't love the wicked, but humans must love their enemies because that is the plan for humans. E) Hell is just a correctional facility for most.
2. A) God is all-knowing, but gives us free-will. You can chose, but God knows all the possibilities and everything he has set-up, the rest runs free. B) God can do as he sees fit, God knows.
3. A) God wanted to give people opportunities, without evil there would be no good; except in the future when he wipes evil out. B) God is not the only one capable of creation/rearrangement. Some of his creatures (even us) have such abilities too. C) God didn't create evil, he created free-will. D) God knows what he is doing.
4. A) God wants to give everyone the opportunity to live. B) God wants to save them quicker. C) All children can be fed; it is our fault, not God's, if they aren't fed. D) God knows.
5. A) Muslims don't believe in Jesus as God (ergo they Blaspheme the Holy Spirit). B) Belief in Jesus is now the only way, although it used to be animal sacrifice. C) Devoted monotheism does not save you from falling into hell, only believing that God is Jesus does. D) Half-hearted Christians are not known by Christ and are throwing themselves into hell too. E) Those who believe in Jesus fully believe and therefore fully practice and bear through it.
6. A) If you believe in Christ you must strive to follow his commands as he himself did, that is obvious so it didn't need to be told in that section. B) The sections after talk about how evil hates the light, so that means you have to be good like Christ was and commands. C) The Holy Spirit is the revelation to Christians, not some version of a Bible.
7. A) God creates people that he wants to give a chance to; they can choose evil or good. B) God created them so that he would prove to/glorify himself that his knowledge of their future was true C) God loves the wayward sons the best, so he created them and they will turn around in the future. D) God's wrath is upon the world as the world hates/ignores him.
None of these are very logical of course; but with faith, you can support anything.
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. Later I came to realize that everything I learned there wasn't real. I want to be upfront about that, and if you only want advice from believers you should ignore this post. Otherwise, I think I can clear some things up for you.
I think it's really important to be honest with yourself. Why did you become a Christian in the first place? If you're like most people you became a Christian for the same reasons a Muslim becomes a Muslim and a Buddhist becomes Buddhist. You simply took the religion that your family and community gave you. Had you been born in India, you would be Hindu. Thailand you would be Buddhist. Saudi Arabi you would be Muslim. You would feel exactly the same way you do now, except it would be about a completely different religion. So you didn't choose to become a Christian, you choose to become religious. Christianity was the only option you were willing to consider.
The point is that your religion is starting to not make sense to you because "making sense" was never why you joined your religion in the first place. I know everyone likes to believe they had a personal one-on-one experience with their god(s), but did they really? I know that when I was a fundamentalist I would say things like "I can feel the Lord working in this room," but honestly I never did. I never really felt anything. I was only saying that because I was afraid that not feeling it meant I would go to hell. Maybe you've experienced the same thing.
Did you ever notice that in churches where people speak in tongues, everyone agrees that the holy spirit fills people and causes them to speak in tongues? Everyone starts rolling around on the floor and speaking a weird language. But oddly enough, in other churches no one speaks in tongues at all. Is one church holier than the other? No, everyone in both churches is simply acting the way they think they are supposed to act, making it up because they are afraid to admit to themselves that they don't feel what they think they are supposed to fill.
The same thing probably has happened to you. You didn't really have a personal experience with God, and neither did anyone else regardless of what they told you. You became a Christian purely because that's how you grew up.
That being the case, maybe it's time to really start examining the bible and Christianity to see if it makes sense. Is it the best way to describe the world we live in? I know that is hard, because it puts you in jeopardy of becoming a non-believer, and you have been taught that non-believers burn in hell. But what if it's not true?
Bare this in mind, the bible is just a collection of writings that a catholic group put together about 1600 years ago. They had a big meeting, took a vote, and decide which letters and writings should be include. Some narrowly lost out, while a few barely made it in. So you are putting a lot of faith in those catholic editors to have choosen the correct writing for you to study. But maybe they were wrong? Maybe they were no more holy than the religious leaders of today, subject to all the same politics and mistakes.
Once you really start thinking about it, the narrative of the bible doesn't make much sense. God is punishing all mankind for Adam and Eve eating some fruit. Is that fair? But wait, he decided he would spare us, which is nice, but only because we murdered his son on the cross?!?! How does that follow? Why would killing his son make him forgive us for eating his fruit? Why wouldn't he just decide that we could be forgiven for the whole fruit thing and move on? You see, the very basic premise and main plot-line of the bible doesn't make any sense.
Now, if you start thinking about it more, you'll see that the whole thing was really just a bunch of random writings from some Bedouin guys from 2000 years ago. It was written over hundreds of years, and the writers didn't know they were supposed to be making a book, so the story is really disjointed. Dig a little deeper and you'll find that much of the bible is just the regurgitation of ancient myths and story telling.
But now, to answer your question directly: Prayer doesn't work. Regardless of what the bible says, prayer won't move mountains. It won't heal the sick. It's only power comes from whatever mild benefit you get from believing in it. But it won't cure cancer, make your teeth whiter, give you a fuller set of hair, etc. By praying, you are simply talking to yourself.
Anyway, that's my opinion. Good luck in your search for clarity.
Actually Boxcar, as a critical agnostic I'd have to disagree with your application of your personal story to everyone else.
Many people research over other religions before and while they support their current ones. They do consider other options and find reasons to chose what they chose; they often choose what is most socially convenient or fits their mentality but that is not the same as only considering one option.
Furthermore, before and after I gave up the religion of various evangelical Christian churches, I've felt a presence of things that probably weren't there in the room and I sure wasn't "making it up" without actually feeling them. I felt them as any feeling is felt, with nerve impulses and all. And although I don't believe in the divinity of the blabbering phenomena, many years after I had firmly established my acceptance of the agnostic stance, I was once able to bring myself to begin seemingly uncontrollably speaking incoherently (the supposed gift of tongues, as contrasted with the supposed gift of prophecy that can translate it). I sure wasn't "pretending." It was as simple as channeling my emotions and energies into speaking without trying to structure the sounds ostensibly. It was as awe-inspiring as my first hand-stand, which wasn't "make-pretend" either.
Everything after "the same thing probably..." I agree with.
Actually Boxcar, as a critical agnostic I'd have to disagree with your application of your personal story to everyone else.
Many people research over other religions before and while they support their current ones. They do consider other options and find reasons to chose what they chose; they often choose what is most socially convenient or fits their mentality but that is not the same as only considering one option.
Furthermore, before and after I gave up the religion of various evangelical Christian churches, I've felt a presence of things that probably weren't there in the room and I sure wasn't "making it up" without actually feeling them. I felt them as any feeling is felt, with nerve impulses and all. And although I don't believe in the divinity of the blabbering phenomena, many years after I had firmly established my acceptance of the agnostic stance, I was once able to bring myself to begin seemingly uncontrollably speaking incoherently (the supposed gift of tongues, as contrasted with the supposed gift of prophecy that can translate it). I sure wasn't "pretending." It was as simple as channeling my emotions and energies into speaking without trying to structure the sounds ostensibly. It was as awe-inspiring as my first hand-stand, which wasn't "make-pretend" either.
Everything after "the same thing probably..." I agree with.
I would suggest your religious experiences were not like most people.
Because I can't help but notice that nearly everyone in Rayadh is Muslim, while the people in Texas are usually Christian and people in New Dehli tend to be Hindue. Now maybe they all put in the time and effort to study different religions and came to wildly different conclusions. But I suspect they just took the religion that dominated their community and household. I think the folks in Texas never really gave Hinduism the same shot they gave Christianity. (In my household we were 7 for 7 Southern Baptist. No Hindu, no Muslims, no animist. Heck, not even a Catholic. Figure those odds.)
But to hedge my bet, I would note that I did say "If you're like most people," and I really do think that is true of most people. If your family is Catholic, you'll probably either be Catholic or nothing at all. The chances of you turning to Shinto are pretty slim. So it's "religious or not religious," for most people, but the kind of religion is just whatever your parents gave you.
I can't explain your feelings of things that weren't there. I don't deny you felt them, but I can tell you that I and many others never did. It was all fear and emperors new clothes for many people. That's a human phenomena that's not limited to church by the way.
If you are looking to have your doubts purged with kind words from people of faith, you might want to either repost, or ask a moderator to move, this thread into the Christianity sub-forum. I'm sure one of our devoutly Christian friends will find this thread soon and begin addressing your questions, but out here in the general religion/spirituality board you will also draw posters with a different point of view. Many of these folks may have had the same questions that you do now and decided that the only solution was to give up their religious convictions in part or in whole. Boxcar Overkill tells a story of this sort (his personal story) quite eloquently.
As for me, I fear I will be of little help. You see, I can assure you that believers can answer all of these questions (as Luminous Truth demonstrates in brief). But the tricky part comes when you decide if the answers provided are good enough. For me they were not, so I sought out my own answers - better answers. I have asked and answered for several decades now, and I'm still asking. I am no longer what many would consider a "person of faith," but the questions that need answers still remain...in some sense, they are my last tether to the faith.
Ok so I've grown up in the church, and I do so much for it, in fact I still have some influence among young adults In the church arena. However I have had some misfortune with God and it has led me to question a great deal. It all started with my 1 and only dream and passion, in which i kept God first in, I felt that if I prayed and done what I was supposed to, have faith all that, my prayers would surely get answered, for i did read that if I ask I should receive.......but I never received. People would tell me, "it may not be God's will" which led me to wonder, then why did the bible say I would have it if I asked for it? I prayed for understanding, but all that became clear is all the other misunderstandings to me. I really want to believe and I have tried to start over but every effort puts me back into my questions and wonders which cloud my spiritual growth. Can I just get some feedback on a couple of questions and how I can try to mute my doubts ?
1. If God loves everyone, and advocates loving your enemy, why does he send people to hell? How is that love?
2. If God is all knowing then how can a human get off his plan? Wouldn't he know everything you do before you do it, and you doing that would be part of his plan?
3. If God is all knowing why would he create evil ? From my understanding he is the only thing capable of creation
4. If God loves everybody why does he insist that children are born that cannot be fed?
5. Why do Muslims who tend to be much more devoted to serving God all go to hell than the half hearted Christian who merely believes Jesus was their savior
6. Why when John 3:16 was written it did not include the fact that "you also have to strive to be like Christ" ?
7. why does God create people he knows will be evil ? Does he not love the world ?
Please can someone clear some of these up?
These things can't be cleared up. You have expressed legitimate concerns regarding the makeup of "God". Luminous has provided most (if not all) of the Christian rationalizations concerning them.
For many like myself, peace of mind was achieved by rejecting these issues as having been born out of any truth or reality. I am no longer conflicted. That being said, others examine and remain in belief either at peace with their examination or remaining conflicted but feeling that they are more secure in belief.
As I did, I will share a Todd Rundgren piece called "God Said" that deals with the issue of doubt from the perspective that I come from. The song expresses the doubter talking to God and God's response (which I have boldened)
Nearly everyone I know claims to have heard your voice
And every time they do, I know I should rejoice
Because one day I'm sure you’ll break your silence
And speak just to me
But I feel like time's running out
And my heart, my heart is filling with doubt
And god said
I don't dwell upon you, I dwell on something else
And I am not really here so get over your self
I've tried to follow every rule they said you handed down
And spread the sacred testimony all around
And still the others seem to have your ear but never will I
Have I displeased you somehow?
I can't, I can't help feeling left out
And god said
There's no anger in me, you must mean someone else
Cause it's not me that you see, you're looking at yourself
And I won't give you a prize instead of someone else
Cause I don't play favorites, so get over yourself
Is it my fear, is it my pride, is it my vanity?
Should your name just be denied to save my sanity?
What is the price I need to pay to have
What others seem to grasp so easily?
Pity your servant your slave
Who'll kiss, kiss your feet to be saved
Save me, save me...
And god said
You are not serving me, you're serving something else
Cause I don't need to be pleased, just get over yourself
You can't suck up to me, I know you all too well
But I don't dwell upon you, so get over yourself
Cause you're not praying to me, you're praying to yourself
And you're not worshipping me you're worshipping yourself
And you will kill in my name and heaven knows what else
When you can't prove I exist so get over yourself
Yes ... sadly once again I can't rep any one person more than once every 10 weeks or so.
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