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Of course there are. Google "Early historians wrote about Jesus"
Also, If Rome was not burned to the ground we would still have the official records of Christ's trial and crucifixion. But even then, you would just say those documents were planted by early Christians. Can't win.
None of those are first hand accounts and many are widely regarded as "pious frauds" (particularly Josephus) or they don't prove nearly as much as believers like to claim they do. The most impressive to me is Tacitus' "Christus" reference, but given that there were many messianic prophets in the place and time described, all the passage really shows is that there were "Christians" or "Chrestians" in Rome during the Great Fire, that the religion originated in Judea and that it was a messianic cult. Even I don't doubt those facts. Paul's ministry was in full swing by the time Tacitus was writing about (64 CE). Paul died in Rome just a few years later. So the existence of Christians in Rome who had beliefs about Christ -- maybe even THAT one -- seems a reasonable conclusion. That is a different matter from the existence of either an historical or Biblical Jesus as presented in the gospels, his divinity, or the details of the events claimed for his life and ministry.
As to public records ... if we had public records from the era discussing Jesus's life, ministry, death and resurrection, they would be assessed same as any other historic document as to authenticity and provenance.
Rome itself wasn't the only possible source of such records. Records were kept locally, and in Alexandria and later Constantinople, too.
One would expect the superstitious Romans to have been fascinated with the likes of the Biblical Jesus. It is odd that no public or private writings by first hand witnesses survive. Even the gospels don't fulfill that criteria.
Of course a lot of ancient papyri didn't survive in their original form, but many were preserved in the same manner as biblical manuscripts through scribes in monasteries and the like. Considering the skin those monasteries had in the game, if there was anything corroborative there (or in the Vatican vaults) they would certainly have shouted it form the housetops long ago.
I actually envy people like yourself. It must be nice.
I was raised in a christian household. My parents are religious, but none of their children including myself are. Like my brother and sister, I am not religious. I believe my brother considers himself to be an atheist, but my sister and I simply are what you would call agnostic I suppose. I personally don't like labeling my beliefs because it seems a bit ridicules considering I have none. My parents don't talk about religion with us anymore, as they know we don't want to hear it. My dad has been through a lot in his life. He is definitely skeptical of his faith, but he claims to be a strong believer. I feel religion is more of a social thing for him, but who knows? My mom is stupid. I love her to death, but there is no getting around the fact that she is not an intelligent person. She has a heart of gold, she is one of the most gullible people you will ever meet. She doesn't get jokes, she can be talked into almost anything, and she's really big on the power of prayer. She is a very simple person that probably could not function without her faith dumbing down the perplexities of life.
Thanks for your interesting post lucky4life. Considering your mother and myself: such God saves.
What do you mean by the above? What are the only two options?
Showing that you don't understand your own statement does not advance your argument in any way.
The options you offer are either Atheist or Agnostic. What about leaving to enter into any other belief system? I know that you are fixated on your version of Christianity but, truly, there are a myriad of other options even if you won't admit it.
Showing that you don't understand your own statement does not advance your argument in any way.
The options you offer are either Atheist or Agnostic. What about leaving to enter into any other belief system? I know that you are fixated on your version of Christianity but, truly, there are a myriad of other options even if you won't admit it.
And what options are those?
The OP question was this:
Quote:
"You left Christianity to be Atheist or Agnostic?
"I am just curious why you think you were Christian? Was it because you started going to a church or several churches, got baptized, gave tithes, attended all the functions?
What made you a Christian?"
It was addressed to atheists and agnostics. I'm sorry the question didn't meet your expectations.
It was addressed to atheists and agnostics. I'm sorry the question didn't meet your expectations.
Which exposes an extremely narrow field of vision and baiting on your part.
By your statement, you apparently feel that there are no options unless you approve of them. Even refusing to do a minimal search to see what other options there are. Very Christian of you.
Which exposes an extremely narrow field of vision and baiting on your part.
By your statement, you apparently feel that there are no options unless you approve of them. Even refusing to do a minimal search to see what other options there are. Very Christian of you.
Arjay51, I'm really sorry but I wasn't even thinking of adding more religions to the question. Really, I wasn't.
I also wasn't baiting anyone. I really just wanted to know what the atheists and agnostics believed as to why they thought they were saved at one point in their life. I really wanted to get them to see that if they truly did start out in faith, that even if they completely left the faith that, rather than telling them (as most Christians would) that they are going to hell fire and damnation for eternity, they are actually still saved, still sealed with the spirit of promise to the day of deliverance and that nothing we do can cause us to lose our salvation. It was freely given and unmerited on our part.
I truly fail to see how I messed up in my question in the original post. Really, I don't know. I don't think I did. It truly was just an innocent question with not super evil ulterior motive behind it other than to get them to see they are still saved. If that is evil, okay.
I am just curious why you think you were Christian? Was it because you started going to a church or several churches, got baptized, gave tithes, attended all the functions?
What made you a Christian?
Reading the past few post I just realized I never answered the question but just stated why I left Christianity.
Going back now
Quote:
I am just curious why you think you were Christian?
I never thought I was a Christian, I knew I was. Jesus(as) was my entire reason for being. I knew with my heart and deepest beliefs He died for my sins and because of him I would have eternal life. I knew that he held me tight and I was saved for all eternity.
Quote:
What made you a Christian?
Nothing made me a Christian. I was a Christian because I was redeemed by Jesus(as) Nothing was required, no ritual could do it, nothing I could do could earn. It was a free gift to me that I accepted.
Personally, I didn't "leave" Christianity, Christianity left me.
But to answer the question, like the formation of most philosophical positions one generally does not wake up one morning and reject one's indoctrination, it is a gradual and logical progression. For me it was from Christianity, to agnosticism and finally atheism.
Arjay51, I'm really sorry but I wasn't even thinking of adding more religions to the question. Really, I wasn't.
I also wasn't baiting anyone. I really just wanted to know what the atheists and agnostics believed as to why they thought they were saved at one point in their life. I really wanted to get them to see that if they truly did start out in faith, that even if they completely left the faith that, rather than telling them (as most Christians would) that they are going to hell fire and damnation for eternity, they are actually still saved, still sealed with the spirit of promise to the day of deliverance and that nothing we do can cause us to lose our salvation. It was freely given and unmerited on our part.
I truly fail to see how I messed up in my question in the original post. Really, I don't know. I don't think I did. It truly was just an innocent question with not super evil ulterior motive behind it other than to get them to see they are still saved. If that is evil, okay.
And it is now your contention that all who formerly believed are forever "saved" even though they reject the concept whether they want to be or not. Sort of like slavery.
And it is now your contention that all who formerly believed are forever "saved" even though they reject the concept whether they want to be or not. Sort of like slavery.
Absolutely they are still saved for eonian life . . . life pertaining to the future eons.
Well of course it is like slavery. But a good slavery!
Rom_1:1 Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, a called apostle, severed for the evangel of God"
1Co_7:22 For, in the Lord, he who is being called a slave, is the Lord's freedman. Likewise, he who is being called, being free, is a slave of Christ."
Gal_1:10 For, at present, am I persuading men or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ."
Col_1:7 according as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow slave, who is a faithful dispenser of Christ for us,
Col_4:7 All my affairs shall be made known to you by Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful servant and fellow slave in the Lord,
Col_4:12 Greeting you is Epaphras, who is one of you, a slave of Christ Jesus, always struggling for you in prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God."
Tit_1:1 Paul, a slave of God, yet an apostle of Jesus Christ, in accord with the faith of God's chosen, and a realization of the truth, which accords with devoutness,
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