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One thing that always strikes me is that the JWs actually believe that 99% of the world hates them and wants them to fail, and so on.
First of all, I don't hate JWs. I don't even hate their religion. I think they are wrong to shun people who leave, and I hate what I've seen them do to families. It is they who are taught to hate. It is subtle, but read tennessee dreamin's posts about "apostates." She makes accusations that she has been taught are true. She didn't come to those conclusions on her own about ex-JWs.
But 99% of the world's people is a HUGE number of people. The fact is, it is likely that 99% of the people on Earth haven't heard of the WTS, and if they have, they simply dismiss it without rancor.
The WTS, like all other cults, exaggerates its own importance on Earth.
I remember going door to door and walking away and having a JW say, "Well, Armeggedon will take care of them," and laughter would follow. For that reason I am even repelled by the Left Behind book series.
Wow! What a statement. Reading that not only floors me but makes me sad. I am sensing such an arrogance in this religion. A holier than thou, evenmoreso than other religions I've studied. While I'm not looking to change my belief system, I am here to learn.
fishbowl had commented about JWs "exageratting their importance here on earth". That statement and one in another post from a JW exudes arrogance on the part of this religion. God is not arrogant. Satan is, but God is not.
Again, I cannot begin to thank you all enough for this information. I have no idea why I am so in tune with this information and so curious, but it's awesome!
Hoosier, be very careful when dealing with JWs. The only people that are pretty free from their wanting to convert are "apostates." As long as you are questioning, you are fodder for their recruitment techniques. When I first started, I just wanted to know more, to understand them. I was at a vulnerable place in my life and allowed myself to be sucked in. They delight in new people questioning their religion, wanting to know more. Step carefully.
The women I studied with were such nice people, and my opinion of the individuals has not changed. I developed a couple of very close friendships in the congregation, and miss them to this day. They shun me now. If I was stronger, maybe I'd say "their loss", but I do feel the loss of those friendships. I'm sorry their religion has lead them down such a dark path when it comes to friendship.
tennessee dreamin' says that we "apostates" are lying. We're only sharing our experiences, and those aren't lies. We aren't aligned with Satan or anything evil. Our experiences are ours and we can and should share them.
When I spoke of the WTS, like other cults, exaggerating their importance here on Earth, I was not speaking of the people in the religion. They are simply buying the party line, lock, stock and barrel. I am speaking of the Watchtower Society itself. The people in the various congregations are spoon fed what to believe, are encouraged strongly not to engage in "independent thinking". So, we really can't blame the JWs themselves.
My heart really goes out to tennessee dreamin. I know she's not been well, and here she is, trying to defend her religion. That's noble. She probably needs to heed the directives of the organization though and not read here. She likely needs to muster up all the positive energy she can and concentrate on healing her body and enjoying her life. I wish her the very best, and hope she finds comfort. If she finds that within the confines of the WTS, that's great. However we can find comfort in this life is good.
Here are some thoughts from the WT Society's own literature.
*** Is This Life All There Is? (1974) p.46 What Is This Thing Called "Soul"? ***
…God, who is himself "the God of truth" and who hates lies, will not look with favor on persons who cling to organizations that teach falsehood. (Psalm 31:5; Proverbs 6:16-19; Revelation 21:8) And, really, would you want to be even associated with a religion that had not been honest with you?
No, thats why I left.
*** Watchtower November 15, 1963 p.688 Execution of Divine Judgment upon False Religion ***
3 Can there be false religion? It is not a form of religious persecution for anyone to say and to show that another religion is false. It is not religious persecution for an informed person to expose publicly a certain religion as being false, thus allowing persons to see the difference between false religion and true religion.
So why do JWs come into discussions like this shouting 'persecution.' If they have the truth, they should be able to defend it.
*** The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life 1968 p.13 Why It Is Wise to Examine Your Religion ***
Since we do not want our worship to be in vain, it is important for each one of us to examine his religion. 5 We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated.Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination. It should be the sincere desire of every one of us to learn what God’s will is for us, and then to do it.-John 8:32.
Once you are a baptized JW you are very much discouraged from doing this, even when they change beliefs. Of course they only apply these words to OTHER religions.
** Awake! 1984 November 22 pp.8-10 An Open Mind Wins God’s Approval ***
Even some religious people have closed minds. They are interested only in "their" religion, showing no willingness to as much as listen to the views of others. And even though they may not have chosen their religion but simply have inherited it from their parents, still they feel that their religion must be right.
There is such irony here, dont you think?
*** Awake! 2000 June 22 The Manipulation of Information ***
Making Generalizations
Another very successful tactic of propaganda is generalization. Generalizations tend to obscure important facts about the real issues in question, and they are frequently used to demean entire groups of people.
Name-Calling
Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts. Name-calling slaps a negative, easy-to-remember label onto a person, a group, or an idea. The name-caller hopes that the label will stick. If people reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative label instead of weighing the evidence for themselves, the name-caller’s strategy has worked.
The Watchtower has cleverly done this with regard to those who have left the JWs due to doctrinal problems or questioning the Organization. They are labelled 'Apostates' and this word has been so forcefully imprinted in the individual JWs psyche to represent all sorts of evil. The label only needs to be given someone (I know, I have had that label) and people who knew you, trusted you, were your good friends for many years, suddenly view you as if you have a plague. They definitely reject you on the 'basis of the negative label, choosing to ignore all they knew about you in the past or any evidence that you may present in your defence....'the name-callers (WT Society) strategy has worked'.
Hoosier, be very careful when dealing with JWs. The only people that are pretty free from their wanting to convert are "apostates." As long as you are questioning, you are fodder for their recruitment techniques. When I first started, I just wanted to know more, to understand them. I was at a vulnerable place in my life and allowed myself to be sucked in. They delight in new people questioning their religion, wanting to know more. Step carefully.
The women I studied with were such nice people, and my opinion of the individuals has not changed. I developed a couple of very close friendships in the congregation, and miss them to this day. They shun me now. If I was stronger, maybe I'd say "their loss", but I do feel the loss of those friendships. I'm sorry their religion has lead them down such a dark path when it comes to friendship.
tennessee dreamin' says that we "apostates" are lying. We're only sharing our experiences, and those aren't lies. We aren't aligned with Satan or anything evil. Our experiences are ours and we can and should share them.
When I spoke of the WTS, like other cults, exaggerating their importance here on Earth, I was not speaking of the people in the religion. They are simply buying the party line, lock, stock and barrel. I am speaking of the Watchtower Society itself. The people in the various congregations are spoon fed what to believe, are encouraged strongly not to engage in "independent thinking". So, we really can't blame the JWs themselves.
My heart really goes out to tennessee dreamin. I know she's not been well, and here she is, trying to defend her religion. That's noble. She probably needs to heed the directives of the organization though and not read here. She likely needs to muster up all the positive energy she can and concentrate on healing her body and enjoying her life. I wish her the very best, and hope she finds comfort. If she finds that within the confines of the WTS, that's great. However we can find comfort in this life is good.
This is a really thoughtful, compassionate post, fishbowl. I appreciate you sharing your experience and your heart like this here. I also want to say that I hold nothing personally against the Jehovah's witnesses that I have known in real life or here on this forum. For the most part, they are very lovely people. However, fishbowl, I do disagree with your last couple of statements. While I love the Jehovah's Witnesses as people, I do believe they are seriously deceived in their beliefs (as they also would say the rest of us are.)
I'm not sure which statements you disagree with. The last ones? Where I said that I hope she finds comfort, etc?
I agree with you. I think that JWs are seriously deceived by the WTS. My feelings about tennesse dreamin are that she has other battles to wage right now, and if she finds a level of comfort within the WTS at present, she is likely better off staying there. If she leaves now, or starts doing heavy questioning now, that will cause her more problems within the congregation than if she simply stays and maintains her status quo.
She likely doesn't need the stress and pressure and heartbreak of losing friends and family who'd turn their backs on her if she was to leave the WTS right now. She's been a JW for a long time now. They may be the only people she has.
I'm not sure which statements you disagree with. The last ones? Where I said that I hope she finds comfort, etc?
I agree with you. I think that JWs are seriously deceived by the WTS. My feelings about tennesse dreamin are that she has other battles to wage right now, and if she finds a level of comfort within the WTS at present, she is likely better off staying there. If she leaves now, or starts doing heavy questioning now, that will cause her more problems within the congregation than if she simply stays and maintains her status quo.
She likely doesn't need the stress and pressure and heartbreak of losing friends and family who'd turn their backs on her if she was to leave the WTS right now. She's been a JW for a long time now. They may be the only people she has.
Gotcha. I understand what you are saying. I wish the best for Tennessee Dreaming too. I know she is fighting a real battle and I wish her well. At the same time, please just understand that I see the Jehovah's Witness doctrine as being in error to the extent, that I would like to see any and everyone who ascribes to it come out at whatever point they can. I'm reluctant to put this out there this bluntly, but ... I personally don't know whether I think what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe would fall into what I classify as error so severe that it would cause one not to be truly saved or born again, but on the other hand, I'm not sure that it isn't either. This is why I'm pretty adamant that I would like to see people come out of it at ANY point.
Yah, after I posted that, it hit me that you might be concerned with their standing before God.
My own feeling, and I could sure be wrong, is that I'll put her on my prayer list and leave it in God's hands. If she decided to leave the WTS, there are ways she could get loving support from other people. If she'd seek it out. Losing friends and family can be devastating though.
I get real sad about people who are trapped inside that organization. I was there, and it's interesting to read the occassional post from an actual JW online. I can almost lip sync what they're saying. It's pretty classic JWisms usually.
As people grow beyond the WTS, and the horizons broaden, it's like color coming back into a life that had become dulled somewhat.
I don't remember if I told this one here before. My husband and I have never, even while I was a JW, worried too much about traditional "roles" in the household. When our kids were young, he cooked dinner most nights and I did the yard work, the garage, etc.
We did it that way, because he loves to cook, and I loved working in the yard. If we'd done it more traditionally, I'd have been cooking and hating it, and he'd have been working in the yard and hating it.
One day two elders dropped by. I was working in the front yard, mowing, edging, etc. My husband was preparing dinner. I invited the elders in.
The first thing one said to me was, "Does he have to fix dinner often?" Then got a mini-lecture on my role as a wife. He never mentioned that I was all sweaty and dirty from mowing the lawn, just that my husband had to cook. LOL
The roles were more important to those elders than our marital happiness.
BTW, the user name Kaykay brings back fond memories of my little sister, when we were young. She goes by Kay now, but when she was little, I always called her Kaykay.
My heart really goes out to tennessee dreamin. I know she's not been well, and here she is, trying to defend her religion. That's noble. She probably needs to heed the directives of the organization though and not read here. She likely needs to muster up all the positive energy she can and concentrate on healing her body and enjoying her life. I wish her the very best, and hope she finds comfort. If she finds that within the confines of the WTS, that's great. However we can find comfort in this life is good.
I haven't been on the Religion forum long enough to really know tennessee dreamin, but I agree with you. The last thing she needs is to see that the JWs are wrong. And for all of the reasons that you are giving in both of your threads.
I am not feeling well enough this evening to really read over these last few posts and make the comments I would like to make, but I am trying.
I am not concerned about the afterlife and so am not concerned about people's souls. I believe that we are all saved and that we will eventually make it someday in some incarnation. I don't believe that one life time is long enough to save everyone anyway. but those beliefs are neither here nor there.
I am more concerned that people that decide to leave an abusive organization do so at their own pace and that they do it in the best way possible, and of course I doubt if tennessee desires to leave, but being ill this is not a good thread for her, at least I don't think it is. She may think otherwise.
Hoosier, If you really want to know what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe I would get the book Crisis of Consciousness that was written by a member that was high up in the organization, one that was at the Watchtower headquarters and who I think is the brother to the president. Franz I believe. It will curl your toes because he was an insider that left the organization and will tell you how it runs.
As far as the world hating the JWs, I may have hated them at one time, but I don't remember the feeling. I remember feelings of hurt, anger, and betrayal. I also remember missing them deeply and some for many years. But I could never go against my own intregrity and go back when I knew that I would be living a lie, although it crossed my mind for many years to do just that. They picked up this belief due to Christ telling people that they will be pursecuted.
If I were coming from a Christian standpoint I would also agree that the JWs are not erroring so much as to not be saved also. They love God very much. And most of them are just doing what all of us do, we are doing what we believe is right.
Jessaka, actually, I agree with you. I think that no matter how hard we insist that this religion or that one is right, the truth is that things are as they are, whatever is simply is. I believe in an afterlife and that it's fine. I don't know why we are here, or why we die or what is next, but I believe we all go on to whatever is next.
That's one reason I think that when someone is in the thoes of an illness that they really need to fight, that isn't the best time to pick to make major life's changes unless they are very positive ones. Tennessee dreamin really needs to tap into everything positive and good in her life. If she finds the WTS to be good, then right now she probably needs to go for it.
I did say a prayer for her last night.
I so agree too that Hoosier should get the book Crisis of Conscienceness by Ray Franz. That would be a whole lot better than to sit and listen to a current JW spout JWisms at him. It's too easy to get lulled into the comfort of the words and not see the rest.
Hoosier, I really encourage you to find that book and read it before embarking on a study with a JW. And that you continually refer to it for your own edification as you are studying with her.
Let me tell you, the JWs have an answer for everything, and it can be dazzling if you are searching.
Janet
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What a statement. Reading that not only floors me but makes me sad. 
I am sensing such an arrogance in this religion. A holier than thou, evenmoreso than other religions I've studied. While I'm not looking to change my belief system, I am here to learn. 
