The War Against Christianity Seems To Be More Like A Counter-Offensive.

[The Venerable Bede]

Originally Posted by Shirina

You know ... this is one of those times when I have to wonder if morality, values, and Christianity are really at the heart of this issue.

Because I wonder if your assertion here isn't merely the result of the dreaded generation gap. Hey, I can empathize, believe it or not.

No, the "generation gap" explanation just doesn't cut it. I have no fond illusions about the world of 50, 100 or 200 years ago. In Christian terms, there has scarcely been a century since the First Century when at least some percentage of the faith weren't convinced that the biblical signs of the end were all around them and the end times were imminently at hand. At least every few hundred years, there has been a major end-times frenzy. In secular terms, it is true that once one is at least a couple of generations removed from the current generation, one generally looks at the music and culture of the current generation as representing a decline. I have factored all of this into my observations quite carefully. While it is silly and unbiblical to speculate as to whether "the end is now at hand," and I am not going to debate specifics with anyone except to say that I am emphatically not talking about the civil rights movement, women in pants or anything of the kind as being signs of decline, there is no question in my mind, having lived the past 50 years and been both a scholar of history and religion, that there have been unprecedented changes on a variety of fronts that have made the world a far more chaotic, dangerous and less moral place than it has ever been before. Throughout history, precisely as Christianity teaches, sinful human nature has always been the fundamental problem; that has never changed and never will. But there are today vastly more opportunities for human nature to run amuck and to wreak havoc on a scale that was never even possible before. I don't happen to believe that we are even close to what the Bible says the end times will look like, but I do believe we are on a steeper slope than ever before and that the world in 50 or 100 or 200 years will be even less of a place that I would want to inhabit. I said in my first post -- which the knee-jerk responders blithely overlooked -- that I fully realize that many people would argue that we are living in a veritable Golden Age and that things are improving every day. We'll see what the world looks like in 50 or 100 or 200 years, but I and the Bible say they are wrong. The planet is a fragile place with finite resources; human nature is fundamentally flawed and, if given the opportunity, will inevitably sink into depravity; and the opportunities to sink into depravity exist today on a scale that they never did before. As a Christian, this is not surprising to me in the slightest; it is precisely what is to be expected. Those who see the world through more rose-colored glasses do not have the view of human nature that Christianity teaches and that I believe is correct. As a Christian, this is precisely what I would expect; those who are mired in sin seldom view themselves as mired in sin, as evidenced by those who say that hell sounds like a lot more fun than heaven. So while I may have thought that The Clash was the greatest band that ever existed and that rap represented the end of anything that deserved to be called music, I am hardly so shallow that this sort of generational thing is why I believe that there is an assault on Christian values and that the assault is expediting the world's inevitable collapse into the near-uninhabitable depravity and chaos that the Bible predicts ("For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:21-22).

[TroutDude]

Don't they teach paragraph breaks in lawyer school?

Or do you not want anyone to read it?

[WoodstockSchool1980]

I grew up in India. India is the world's most populous democracy, and has a tradition of multiple religions living side by side.

Democracy plus multiple religions means no religion can assume itself to be the sole religion of the government. No one religion is allowed to tell everyone what to do. How does India do it? By keeping religion out of law.

If you look at democracy in general, how in the world could one religion be incorporated into government? How in the world has it become okay for one religious group in the USA to say they have all the rights to say what should happen in government establishments? Even indoctrinating the children of non-Christian kids in schools with Christianity? Nobody better tell my kids they have to pray in school. It's an idea that is compatible with the Spanish Inquisition or something, and it has NO place in government of countries that call themselves democratic.

[Mightyqueen801]

Originally Posted by TroutDude

I wish more Christians trundled along your path.

As do I do I. Good posts.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by WoodstockSchool1980

I grew up in India. India is the world's most populous democracy, and has a tradition of multiple religions living side by side.

Democracy plus multiple religions means no religion can assume itself to be the sole religion of the government. No one religion is allowed to tell everyone what to do. How does India do it? By keeping religion out of law.

If you look at democracy in general, how in the world could one religion be incorporated into government? How in the world has it become okay for one religious group in the USA to say they have all the rights to say what should happen in government establishments? Even indoctrinating the children of non-Christian kids in schools with Christianity? Nobody better tell my kids they have to pray in school. It's an idea that is compatible with the Spanish Inquisition or something, and it has NO place in government of countries that call themselves democratic.

That's how we supposedly started off: keeping religion out of government.

Somehow the Tea Party Fundamentalists managed to worm their way back into it and now look at the mess we have!

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by The Venerable Bede

and I am not going to debate specifics with anyone

I guess that makes a meaningful discussion on the subject rather moot. Anyone can toss out vague generalizations and play his cards close to his chest to avoid analysis by others who are likely to disagree with him. In fact, I think the Bible operates on a similar principle.

Originally Posted by The Venerable Bede

As a Christian, this is precisely what I would expect;

As a Christian, it is impossible to view the world objectively. Certain things MUST come to pass before your version of the End of Days happens, so you're actively looking for those signs. And we all know what happens then. Yep. You tend to find exactly what you're looking for. I suppose this is why there have been End Times frenzies going all the way back to the fall of Rome.

But ... I suppose just about every cult has its own pending apocalypse, which is why I've been saying that Christianity is simply a messianic cult that became popular enough that obvious signs of being a cult were buried. But the signs are there, and this nagging belief that the world is in decline is perhaps the single most common belief among all cult members worldwide whether they worship God or Cthulhu.

Originally Posted by The Venerable Bede

those who are mired in sin seldom view themselves as mired in sin

Or it could be that most people simply aren't mired in sin.

Originally Posted by The Venerable Bede

as evidenced by those who say that hell sounds like a lot more fun than heaven.

We don't believe in either one - especially hell. If a morally just God exists, sending people to Hell for not becoming a devout believer wouldn't be high on his list. Especially since there's only an old Bronze Age text that stands in for actual evidence. If this God DID send people to an eternity of torment for not believing he exists, then he isn't a morally just God, meaning Heaven will be just as hellish as Hell.

Originally Posted by The Venerable Bede

I believe that there is an assault on Christian values and that the assault is expediting the world's inevitable collapse into the near-uninhabitable depravity and chaos that the Bible predicts

Since you can't or won't explain to us all just which "Christian values" are being assaulted, there's just one thing left to do: