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I stand by what I said. My post was deleted without my knowledge or intent, even though the moderator gave "not member's intent" as the reason for deletion.
If perry's remark was supposed to be a joke, point out the funny word.
If perry's remark was supposed to be a joke, point out the funny word.
Perry's quote:
"Wow that hand smack on the butt hurt compared to what other cellmates could do to him."
One implication here is sexual assault. Add in a "Wow" and you've got a tongue-in-cheek post, which is a form of joking around. I thought it was a sick joke.
It's okay for perry to tell Shirina her joke was sick, but apparently when I said perry's joke was sick and explained why there was something unacceptable in the post. Yes, my post was scathing. I also added some tongue-in-cheek commentary. The entire post was deleted by a moderator. If one is going to imply sexual assault, then the door is open to discuss it. At least that's what I think.
My tolerance is low for a series of posts by someone who glorifies (my perception...) corporal punishment and then makes a joke about the sexual assault of an incarcerated minor. It's the kind of thing that will get a response. I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that I work with youth, some of whom are at risk for being recruited by gangs, and have worked with children who were sexually assaulted.
I'm still learning how things work around here--I haven't yet reached Senior Member status. Now I know to make a screen shot if I post something I think may be controversial. Then at least I'll have a record of my thoughts.
He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
How do you feel about spanking your child ? If you spare the rod, what form of discipline do you use when the child has done wrong ?
I train my children and we use room out. No spanking, yelling or hitting involved.
Today there was one and it went like this
Middle was whining and demanding
" We dont talk to others that way and if you dont stop youll get a room out"
and she didnt
" You need to go to room out for being disrespectful"
and she goes up for 8mins (shes 8) and sits until i call her down. No toys, tv, animals, books, etc in their room intentionally- everything is kept downstairs in playroom). She knows she is to go up there and think/pray on what she did, then when called down, explain why and apologize.
"Middle you can come down now"
" Mommy, Im sorry i was disrespectful"
" How and what could you do different next time?"
" I was whining and asking you non stop, next time I could wait until you answer me"
We tried time out, but found despite sitting away it wasnt giving them that reflection moment. Sometimes you just need a moment ya know?
If one chooses a more idiomatic translation, rather than a literal one, then the prospect of corporal punishment may be removed from the passage explicitly. While this is certainly good news for readers who base their ethics off of the Bible, it perhaps may not do justice to the intention of the author. A comparison with other passages may help decide the matter, and in the course of this I examine whether one should use an ancient collection of non-religious scribal proverbs as a moral religiously "inspired" way of life.
The social context of corporal punishment in the ANE.
I suppose corporal punishment is just one unfortunate aspect of basing one's ethics off of a work composed in an atmosphere of Patriarchalism, a typical cultural ideology in the ancient Near East. Not only were women, as wives, seen as property to be controlled, but children also shared this social status and thus both were seen as requiring some sort of guidance in the "correct" ways of that society. The stability of the family unit is an important theme in the ancient Near East and the Hebrew Bible in general, and the Book of Proverbs reflects this but with perhaps a hint of less harshness (I'm thinking of the severe answers to social instability, such as corporal punishment resulting in death).
Structure of Proverbs 13 and an Alternative Translation That Removes Corporal Punishment
Chapter 13 is a collection of proverbs, loosely related at times and without a central theme. One cannot look at ch. 13 and declare "ah, this is the over-arching theme of the proverbs in this section", but one can see that vv. 20-25 are separate from the rest of the chapter, even if it has no basic theme. Jumping outside of the small section of 20-25, the beginning of the chapter highlights the principle underlying corporal punishment as one means of parental discipline:
A wise son - through a father's reproof,
but a scoffer does not heed rebuke.
(Proverbs 13:1, TWB Alter)
That corporal punishment is seen as acceptable is the problem that was the impetus for this thread, from what I can gather. The translation of the verse, itself, is usually fairly straightforward:
Who spares his rod hates his son,
but who loves him seeks him out of reproof.
(13:24, Alter)
I've chosen Robert Alter's translation (from The Wisdom Books: Job, Proverbs and Ecclesiastes - A Translation with Commentary, W. W. Norton & Company, New York 2010 - abbreviated here as TWB Alter) for it's accessibility and close adherence to the Biblical Hebrew, but in the Anchor Bible Series, R. B. Y. Scott has chosen a more idiomatic translation that removes the more literal idea of corporal punishment:
He who will not punish his son shows no love for him,
For if he loves him he should be concerned to discipline him.
(AB 18, Doubleday & Company 1965)
Idioms: Why Complaining that "You Set My Heart On Fire" Does Not Mean you Require Medical Assistance.
The above translation removes specific mention of corporal punishment, and one could argue that the normal translation of "sparring the rod" was not meant literally, but was an idiomatic phrase that denoted disciple in general. An idiomatic phrase is one in which the combination of individual words produces a collective meaning that is different from the individual definitions, like in English saying "fight fire with fire", "cut someone off at the knees", "lose your head" or even the awesome "as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs".
In other words, "spare the rod" in the Biblical example may simply be another way of saying "do not punish". This would be helpful for those who have reached an ethical impasse with this passage.
Other Examples of Corporal Punishment in the Book of Proverbs?
But is it likely? Ignoring the philological arguments, for the moment, I suppose one could determine the most probable meaning by first establishing whether the context of the culture would have promoted corporal punishment (and yes, from the brief examination at the beginning of the post, it does), and whether or not the author of the proverb can be found with similar sentiments elsewhere in the book. This is a risky enterprise, since the Book of Proverbs is a collection of proverbs from the Israelite scribal tradition, and is not from one author alone. One could rightfully question whether this endeavor is helpful or not, since the opinions of one collector may not reflect another's. The best I can say, I suppose, is that the conclusion would at least reflect the final editor of the collection, or the school he was a part of - so we may perhaps reach a "consensus" view of corporal punishment within the collection.
Regardless, 13:24 is found in the first of the two official Solomonic Proverbs collections of chapters 10-22:16 (10:1 "The proverbs of Solomon") and chapters 25-29 (25:1 "These, too, are proverbs of Solomon, which the men of Hezekiah king of Judea transcribed" ). So the proverb is attributed to Solomon, whether as author or scribe or collector we do not know. The example below is not from the Solomonic Proverbs, but from a collection of proverbs consisting of two smaller sections" at 22:17 - 23:12 and 23:13 - 24:22. So we do appear to have different authors, but see my observation on a common scribal tradition above.
Bring your heart to reproof,
and your ear to sayings of truth.
Do not hold back reproof from a lad,
when you strike him with the rod, he won't die.
You, with the rod you should strike him
and save his life from Sheol [see Note below].
(23:12-14, TWB Alter)
Well, it appears that this passage can probably not be taken idiomatically!
Conclusion: Morality that was Intended for a Different Audience
It appears that the collectors of the Wisdom Tradition found in the Book of Proverbs did approve of using a form of corporal punishment on the young, but I will point out that this applies to males only! While we may not agree with the male-centric outlook of Proverbs, it is certainly there. The sayings are directed at male students and the language frequently employs sexualized metaphors and touches on issues that young men would encounter in their daily life. This should not be too surprising, as it was written in an atmosphere of Patriarchalism, a world where males became scribes and females became wives. This alone should caution us from blindly adopting what the collection has to say, as we are not in the same world as the audience of this collection would have inhabited, and neither are we the same people.
It certainly has some good sayings, and good advice for living a certain type of life, but I think it doesn't claim for itself to be an ethical compass for the majority of people, but rather a guide for those who wished to follow in the Wisdom Tradition of ancient Israel and other cultures. As far as I know, nowhere does it claim a sort of religious authority for itself, and is actually quite secular in its outlook. The advice is given to students, not because God said so, but because they made good common sense to students.
Note on Sheol, the "stranger-woman" and how to live: Sheol is the Biblical Netherworld or Underworld, the proverb here repeating the idea found elsewhere in the collection that doing the wrong thing in life will lead to death - not a spiritual death, but an actual physical death - an example being the punishment for adultery (whether that punishment is a legal or crime-of-passion via the husband) such as in the warning against adultery, where the "strange woman" is literally in charge of the entrance to Sheol:
My son, to my wisdom hearken,
to my discernment bend your ear,
to guard cunning
so that your lips may keep knowledge.
For the stranger-woman's lips drip honey,
smoother than oil her open mouth.
But in the end she's as bitter as wormwood,
sharp as a double-edged sword.
Her feet go down to Death,
in Sheol her steps take hold.
No path of life she traces,
her pathways wander, and she does not know.
And now, sons, hear me,
and do not swerve from my mouth's sayings [a nice wordplay on the path of the "wise"].
Keep your way far from her
and do not go near the entrance of her house,
lest you give to others your glory
and your years to a ruthless man,
lest strangers sate themselves with your vigor,
and your toil - in an alien's house,
and in the end you roar
when your body and flesh waste away....
...And why dote, my son, on a stranger-woman,
clasp an alien woman's lap?
For before the LORD's [YHWH's] eyes are the ways of a man,
He traces all his pathways.
The crimes of the wicked ensnare him,
in the ropes of his offense he is held.
He will die for want of reproof,
in his great doltishness he will dote.
(Proverbs 5:1-11, 20-23)
The "stranger-woman" is seen as a gateway to death, literally, and a means of losing one's money and wealth (via a lawsuit by the husband most likely, or through her "alien" desires for a lavish lifestyle - perhaps a reflection on Solomon's wives and the temples he built for them?), as well as a good way to get a sexually transmitted disease possibly "when your body and flesh waste away". The point of the story, besides being a bit racist and being opposed to exogamy (marriage outside a social or racial group) is the fool or unwise male will end up stupid and dead. The Proverbs are surprisingly lacking in religious motivations for how to live one's life, but are firmly based on common sense and the prospect of living a good life in the here and now. "Lady Wisdom" is seen as the desirable female for young men to grasp ahold of (leading to life, riches, honor, etc.), as opposed to the various incarnations of "Dame Folly" (who leads to death, shame, poverty, etc.).
Today there was one and it went like this
Middle was whining and demanding
" We dont talk to others that way and if you dont stop youll get a room out"
and she didnt
" You need to go to room out for being disrespectful"
and she goes up for 8mins (shes 8) and sits until i call her down. No toys, tv, animals, books, etc in their room intentionally- everything is kept downstairs in playroom). She knows she is to go up there and think/pray on what she did, then when called down, explain why and apologize.
"Middle you can come down now"
" Mommy, Im sorry i was disrespectful"
" How and what could you do different next time?"
" I was whining and asking you non stop, next time I could wait until you answer me"
We tried time out, but found despite sitting away it wasnt giving them that reflection moment. Sometimes you just need a moment ya know?
Anyone ever watch the SuperNanny reality show? It's actually quite excellent. She turns around some really ridiculous lack of discipline situations without resorting to corporeal punishment (or even mentioning it). And she does it pretty much as you describe. My guess is that you have already set a firm expectation of an apology, and this is an important part of the show's technique. It varies a bit from yours in that any handy corner or wall is used, and the apology is asked for after the time out. This is what Christians would refer to as "repentance" (which really just means to change one's mind). When a child is repeatedly given clear boundaries and directed to a place of self awareness / reflection and "changing their mind" about their forbidden behaviors, it retrains the mind. FAR more healthy than conditioning a child to do right out of fear of doing wrong, and than confusing changed behavior with actual change of thinking (they are NOT necessarily the same -- at all).
I like your "how and what could you do different next time" question.
I'd be very hesitant about consulting you as a doctor now since there is no way to really know how badly you're mixing your religious dogma in with the science of psychiatry and neurology.
"Hey! You got your dogma in my science!" Unfortunately, that combination will not taste anywhere near as good as a Reese's peanut butter cup.
Shirina -
I answered another person who objected to my being a psychiatrist and had strong religious beliefs in the following manner:
Mordant -
I truly believe [whether a psychiatrist or not] that Jesus Christ was the most compassionate and most Holy man who who ever lived in the flesh on this earth. He died on the cross to save sinners FROM their sins, See 2 Pet.3:[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Jesus also said in Luke 15:[7] I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Jesus also confirmed the doctrine of hell for unbelievers and said very clearly in Matt. 7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
SOME OF MY PERSONAL BELIEFS. if any of these are not in harmony with the Holy Scriptures, please let me know. I believe that many people are preaching doctrines which turn the Word of God into a lie, a very serious condition::
I firmly believe that the "once saved always saved" doctrine has lured many into a false sense of security. Jesus said in Matt. 10:22 that "he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Jesus said also in Matt. 12:[43] When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
[44] Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
[45] Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
See Heb. 10:[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth [which comes through the gift of the Holy Spirit] there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.
I truly believe that many denominations are in error when they say all believers receive the Holy Spirit. See Acts 5:[32] "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY HIM." Many teach that we are saved by faith alone and that we do not have to obey Christ, but He Himself said in the 14th chapter of John, "If ye love me, Keep my commandments." And in Matt 7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
I truly believe that if we have a mind to be obedient to our Savior and ask to be given the Holy Spirit, He says, "Ask and ye SHALL receive." If we receive that Spirit, we are empowered to be able to resist Satan when he tempts us to commit a willful disobedience to any of the commandments of Christ. We will still make many human mistakes, but according to 1 John1:[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Best wishes as we seek to know and DO the will of God,
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