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This can't be, I would consider this as being somewhat double-minded, one needs to be full-throttle with their beliefs, that doesn't mean one understands everything there is to know, because I sure don't myself.
That's the problem with dogma. It is black and white, feast or famine, drought or flood.
Going full-throttle with your beliefs even when you don't understand what you believe is like driving a car on a foggy road as fast as it will go thinking that you can just keep going straight regardless of turn-offs, 'T' intersections, stop signs, traffic lights, bridges that are out, pedestrians in the crosswalk ....
You don't stop, you don't look back, and you just keep on 'a-drivin' no matter what's in your path. And you never bother to even wonder if you're going in the right direction.
As we go about living and practicing our religions of choice, can we admit to ourselves that deep down there are a few things about our religions that we question, some elements that don't quite make sense or resonate with us, yet we carry on and profess belief and loyalty.
This is cognitive dissonance, in which our minds, lives, beliefs, and actions are in conflict because we profess to believe something while deep down our intuition tells us that the belief is not entirely accurate or logical or necessary.
Spirituality may be a more adaptable method of finding meaning and depth. Spirituality is personal and fluid and dogma-free.
Everyone experiences the dissonance. But because of strong psychological needs, most are capable of just burying the dissonance deep in the mind as they substitute faith in its place. The faith, they hope, will fulfill their pressing needs. And then there is plenty of support to keep the dissonance buried and the faith on the surface from their religious counterparts.
And as for the judge, in 1992 he ran for Congress (and lost) as a Republican. Then he served on the transition team of Republican Governor-elect Tom Ridge. John E. Jones III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yeah. What a lefty...
So what precisely is 'liberal' about this judge, who has interpreted the Windsor decision exactly the same way that every other federal judge has interpreted it? Nothing. 'Liberal' in this case is just a inapplicable epithet from Vizio, who is either too lazy or simply unable to coherently argue against the ruling.
For those like Zelpha, if you have a 'true relationship with God,' do you think it's the same desert tribal god of the Old Testament that slaughtered and murdered and rampaged across the Middle East?
Because there is where some HUGE cognitive dissonance takes place - this belief that the god of the Old Testament is still this perfect, just, fair, loving God that, I dunno, just happens to enjoy burnt offerings and genocide.
My understanding of God has departed from the Bible. The Bible has too many contradictions, cultural antiquities that no longer apply to us, mistranslations, and is highly subject to interpretation that few can ever seem to agree on.
All the horrible destructions supposedly caused by God in the Bible, IMO were tales written by people to provide some sort of explanation for the atrocities. "God is angry at our sins and he's punishing us." Or poor Job, "His faith was being tested." Yes we can learn from these tales if we'd like to. The Bible tales depict events that may or may not have happened, I have no idea. If these tales motivate some people to strive toward sinlessness, all the power to them. I lived with that mindset for nearly 20 years and it stifled my existence as a human.
God as I understand him now:
All I feel sure of is that however and from whatever power(s) life, creation, and the universe came from, it's an amazing work, and must be a fascinating experiment to oversee all these humans with all the powers & intelligence & capabilities we've been endowed with, and all our uncertainties and curiosities & weaknesses & hungers & changing mental and physical states... How fascinated our creator(s) must be to oversee it all and see what we make of our lives and our planet.
Furthermore, I am certain there is a spiritual element to all of this that humans can so easily be blinded from as we struggle for daily survival. This spiritual element very well does involve calling upon the wisdom of the universe and finding oneness with all creation in order to find our true paths.
Are gays forcing you to marry another man? No? Then lifting the ban doesn't impose one damn thing onto you. Plus, enforcing the Constitution (rather than the Bible) is NOT bigotry - it's obeying the law. Those bans were all unconstitutional from the start and even the very conservative Republican anti-gay PA governor, Corbett, isn't going to appeal the decision. Because he knows he would lose.
Stop trying to force your definition of marriage on me, and I won't have an issue with it. Again, I'll point out that these bans were put in place by people voting. They are being overturned by a very small minority of people -- against the will of the people.
It's funny..but I keep hearing the homosexual lobby arguing that being gay is something you're born as...similar to skin color. We didn't end slavery with a court decision, why would you think it appropriate to do here?
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You can let if affect YOUR life all you want. The problem is that you want it to affect my life, too. And everyone else's, freedom be damned. Religion needs to stay a personal choice and not a government mandate.
You're attempting to make the argument that the ONLY reason that someone can be opposed to same-gender marriage is for religious purposes. I haven't made that argument. You're jumping to that. So please stop assigning motives to me.
Am I forcing you to marry a person of the opposite gender? Or do you have the freedom to do so or not to do so? Why can't you just leave me alone?
Speaking for myself - and simply - it's because you are in a position of authority among some people and you preach bad things. And you do the same on the internet. And you have the gall to say those things are god-approved when in fact, your bigoted notions stem from a book written by ancient goatherds and fishermen and have nothing to do with god at all.
Stop trying to force your definition of marriage on me, and I won't have an issue with it.
How is is forcing a definition on you? As a pastor, you are allowed to limit the religious services you provide, you don't have to marry gays, you don't have to allow them membership in your church. Why is government recognition of gay marriage any more wrong than government recognition of an open marriage? Both are morally wrong, according to your faith, yet allowing one is not an imposition on you and the other is? It doesn't make sense...
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Again, I'll point out that these bans were put in place by people voting. They are being overturned by a very small minority of people -- against the will of the people.
Good point! This is why the US was never intended to be a pure democracy. We have the Bil of Rights for a reason, to make some things off limits even if the majority wants them. The courts have done what the founders intended, and overturned laws that violate these limits.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
It's funny..but I keep hearing the homosexual lobby arguing that being gay is something you're born as...similar to skin color. We didn't end slavery with a court decision, why would you think it appropriate to do here?
Again you are correct, it would have been impossible for a court to overturn slavery on a constitutional basis before the Civil War. This was not becasue the judiciary was somehow more virtuous back then, it was becasue the Constitution did not forbid slavery. After the Civil war we fixed that, and have also added the 14th amendment. It was because getting rid of slavery required the blood of over 600,000 Americans that we recognized that we needed to amend the Constitution to fix the oversight. Now discrimination can and should be ended using Judicial Review, the mechanism put in place by the Constitution.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
You're attempting to make the argument that the ONLY reason that someone can be opposed to same-gender marriage is for religious purposes. I haven't made that argument. You're jumping to that. So please stop assigning motives to me.
I can't speak for Shirina, but every argument I have heard to date boils down to one of two reasons: I find it icky, or God finds it icky.
Since you mention it though, you are right, we should allow you to speak for yourself. Why do you oppose homosexual marriage?
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Am I forcing you to marry a person of the opposite gender? Or do you have the freedom to do so or not to do so? Why can't you just leave me alone?
Umm, in a way yes. If a person wants a marriage, according to you it must be with an opposite gender. The question is why? If a same sex couple wishes to marry, why should the government disallow it? Their church or other religious organization is fine with it, their families are fine with it, why should the government not be?
Stop trying to force your definition of marriage on me, and I won't have an issue with it.
Heh, it's impossible for anyone to force a definition onto you. You're perfectly free to call a "tree" an "awning" and call a "knife" a "self-sealing stem bolt" if you really want to. Thus you can personally definie marriage any way you see fit. As I said, lifting the ban doesn't interfere with your life at all. AT ALL. The problem is on your end.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Again, I'll point out that these bans were put in place by people voting.
So what. Would you meekly accept a ban on Christianity if the people voted for it? Be honest now.
Fortunately, this nation recognizes that tyranny of the majority can and does, in fact, exist - and that is regulated by the judicial branch of the government. You know, one of three checks and balances the Founders put in place so people couldn't vote other people into servitude, persecution, or into the status of a 2nd class citizen.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
They are being overturned by a very small minority of people -- against the will of the people.
Have you even bothered to look at national opinion on same-sex marriage lately? A clear majority of people are in FAVOR of a federal marriage equality law allowing same-sex marriage in all 50 states. YOU, sir, are the one spouting the opinion of a minority at this point.
Secondly, again, so what. The government does things against the will of the people all the time. How many people really wanted to go to war with Iraq ... again? Hey, but we went anyway despite the worldwide protests against it. Sometimes you just gotta eat the crow, Vizio.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
It's funny..but I keep hearing the homosexual lobby arguing that being gay is something you're born as...similar to skin color. We didn't end slavery with a court decision, why would you think it appropriate to do here?
Slavery was ended with the 13th Amendment, and you better believe that the court's fingerprints were all over it. But what's REALLY funny is how the Bible Belt states refused to ratify the 13th Amendment until they were practically forced to - yeah, they also refused to ratify the gender equality amendment, too, and so on, and so forth. Not really sure how you can really claim to be Christian when the Bible Belt has consistently voted against anything having to do with equality and help for the poor.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
You're attempting to make the argument that the ONLY reason that someone can be opposed to same-gender marriage is for religious purposes.
Because the non-religious arguments are just plain stupid - mainly because they deal with children, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with same-sex marriage. Either that, or they can equally apply to hetero marriages which invalidates the argument (unless you think heteros ought not to get married either)
But I really don't care WHY you oppose it - I only care that you think you get to impose your opinions onto society as a whole. Religious fascism is very unbecoming - especially knowing that allowing gays to marry does not affect your right to practice your religion not one iota ... no, not one.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
I haven't made that argument. You're jumping to that. So please stop assigning motives to me.
See above. The "why" is irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Am I forcing you to marry a person of the opposite gender?
Firstly, I'm not gay so forcing me to marry someone of the opposite gender is somewhat of a moot point.
But that's neither here nor there. What IS important is: Is anyone forcing YOU to marry someone of the same gender?
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Or do you have the freedom to do so or not to do so?
What I would like is for people of either sex to marry the person they love regardless of gender. That way EVERYONE has the choice and the freedom to do as their own lives dictate - and not what YOU dictate on their behalves. Your way is to give everyone one and only one choice: marry someone of the opposite gender. There is no freedom in that (which is why it's fascism.)
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Why can't you just leave me alone?
Because you keep posting things that I strongly disagree with? *shrug* It's a debate and discussion forum after all. I'm not stalking you or trying to harass you on purpose, but if you put your opinions out there, expect comment and criticism. Isn't that why you're here? Or were you looking for an echo chamber?
At any rate, sure, I'll leave you alone on this thread because I think we're going off topic. So I'll refrain from any more gay marriage posts on this thread. *bows apologetically*
Everyone experiences the dissonance. But because of strong psychological needs, most are capable of just burying the dissonance deep in the mind as they substitute faith in its place. The faith, they hope, will fulfill their pressing needs. And then there is plenty of support to keep the dissonance buried and the faith on the surface from their religious counterparts.
There seems to be a generalization that all people following a religious belief have some sort of conflict between the physical world and their religious teachings/beliefs.
That need not be true for all people who follow a religion.
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