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Your morality comes from society standards and the law which in American culture has origins rooted in Christianity. If you think I'm wrong then let's see what happens if we suddenly do away with laws and there are no consequences. How many people would honestly not cheat on their taxes if there was never a chance of being audited or penalized?
Here's a real world example. In the last few years, the movie industry has launched an aggressive ad campaign trying to show ppl that pirating movies is the same as stealing a movie from the store. Most ppl wouldn't dare shoplift a movie from a store because there is a real direct consequence. Yet millions pirate movies every day with no guilt because there is no consequence.
But if morality is as simple and absolute as you suggest then the moral stance that stealing is wrong shouldn't have any wavering or difference if a law exists or not. People should behave the same way regardless, right?
And none of those pirating movies are Christians, right?
You gotta do better than that, jeff. This isn't Little League.
Your morality comes from society standards and the law which in American culture has origins rooted in Christianity.
No, it concocted its own laws based on English Common Law, some of which was developed by people who happened to be Christians. Please don't trot out that tired old trope that the founding fathers were evangelical Christians with a vision to bring in the kingdom of god on earth. They were secular-oriented and at best deists and their vision was for the state to be autonomous from the church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If you think I'm wrong then let's see what happens if we suddenly do away with laws and there are no consequences. How many people would honestly not cheat on their taxes if there was never a chance of being audited or penalized?
We have laws because there are always miscreants and we have to define what compliance looks like and what fair penalties look like. There is no need to try to mystify it beyond that. It's very pragmatic and straightforward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Here's a real world example. In the last few years, the movie industry has launched an aggressive ad campaign trying to show ppl that pirating movies is the same as stealing a movie from the store. Most ppl wouldn't dare shoplift a movie from a store because there is a real direct consequence. Yet millions pirate movies every day with no guilt because there is no consequence.
It isn't so much the lack of consequences as the abstract nature of intellectual property which is a very new concept for people to grapple with. It is also hard in many contexts to show actual economic harm done to anyone and thus prove a crime. For example if I find an old 1960's LP in my closet that is no longer on the market in any form and I rip it to a CD and give away a few copies to enthusiasts of some long-forgotten soloist, it's pretty hard for the holder of the copyright on that particular item to demonstrate that I either gained anything or took anything from their pocket. It's rather different than stealing a horse. Some moral questions are thornier than others, and/or, less black and white. A person of perfectly good conscience could be guided by the "do no harm" principle and yet could unwittingly violate a copyright or patent law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
But if morality is as simple and absolute as you suggest then the moral stance that stealing is wrong shouldn't have any wavering or difference if a law exists or not. People should behave the same way regardless, right?
No, not right. As I've just pointed out, morality is not always black and white and that is why sometimes differences of opinion or perception require some form of mediation or litigation. But even aside from that, people have varying ideas of varying sophistication and nuance concerning moral judgments. If laws did not exist, they would have to be reinvented in order to mediate disputes and standardize moral concepts, and to protect the majority of people from the minority who steal and do other maladaptive things.
I don't even understand your argument here, because you are just shooting yourself in the foot. If "do not steal" were handed down from on high, then why did laws ever evolve? People should just not steal regardless, right? It seems that people's tendency to anarchy in the absence of the rule of law suggests in fact that there is no universal, baked-in moral compass at the species level. Instead, we evolved it as a social construct so that we could cooperate when we needed to move beyond the hunter-gatherer phase.
This is a mischaracterization of atheism. You seem to be assuming atheists are death centered. This is untrue. While many atheists believe death is the end, they don't focus on the fact their consciousness will simply dissolve into nothingness when they die. Rather than living a life focused on death, most focus on this life and making it the most ethical and fulfilled one they can. Some religious people like to say that atheists can't judge right from wrong, although if your focus is on this life rather than what happens after, you know how your actions affect yourself, others and the world around you. The fact someone believes death is the cessation of their existence doesn't mean the logical conclusion is believing there is no right or wrong and that you can do whatever you want. All it means is that it is better to focus on bettering this life and the betterment of humanity rather than preparing for death. There is such a thing as right and wrong and can be judged if there is no afterlife. Your actions affect those around you and therefore affect yourself. This is how right and wrong can be determined. If I felt like going around beating everyone to a bloody pulp, that doesn't mean such an action is the right thing to do. You're actions have consequences in this life. Right and wrong are not contingent on god nor are they contingent on the lunacy of transcendent morality.
Many atheists add to the betterment of this world. This can be seen by the many atheist scientists, writers, philosophers etc. that have contributed to others. My life can contribute to others by helping other people and attaining accomplishments that better this world.
In the end, we simply turn to dust and rot in the ground but all that means is that it is better to live this life as virtuous and fulfilling as possible.
I do start threads, yes. One thread, to be exact, in the past month. When I got an answer to my question, I was done. I didn't stick around because I wasn't interested in what they have to say beyond that.
Not interested in learning anything new, only in confirmation (by your standards) of what you already believe. How open minded of you.
I find evangelical atheists trying to impose their beliefs on an entire society.
That must be your term for someone that you cannot control or influence. In point of fact, in atheism there is nothing to be evangelical about. And that offends you.
Why? They tend to hang out in this forum quite a bit. For some reason, many atheists seem to be drawn to the forum that discusses the very thing they claim to not believe in.
You do realize that this is not strictly a Christian forum, right? The title is Religion and Spirituality, thus it is open to discuss those topics in spite of your objections and attempts to hijack it.
An exchange of information on a subject can never be a bad thing, even when it runs counter to your personal beliefs.
So what do you think?
You are born, you learn how to walk, how to talk, you go to school, party, you can do whatever you want since there is no right or wrong (there is no hell or haven) you go to college and perhaps earn a degree, get a job, have kids may be, and then you die. What do you add to this phased cycle of billions of humans?
And after you die, your body just sits there under tons of dust to rot?
I have no problem with an atheist posting here. I just don't understand the motivation. I don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but I don't go posting in FSM forums.
And what is your motivation when you post in the A&A forums or those of religions differing from your own?
I have read many of your posts and you are not polite in responding to the responses you receive. It appears that you post there to "save" all of us heathens whether we want to be "saved" or not.
Unfortunately for some, the board is titled to include those who aren't Religious but consider themselves Spiritual in some way nevertheless.
The board is open to all posters. Some may not be spiritual, but want to learn about it or ask some questions about it. The TOPIC is Religion and Spirituality. All are welcome.
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