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As a Christian I understand you seeing it that way. But when engaging in philosophical / intellectual debate, you cannot assume that the person you are debating with accepts scripture as evidence of anything. Certainly, no one would legitimately do so unless they had adequate substantiation of the Bible's claims to be special revelation from an invisible being in the heavens. Unless you can appeal to something more than the asserted authority of an invisible deity and the internal claims of scripture about itself, you cannot bring the scriptures or your own assertions or those of your accepted dogma, into the conversation.
It would be like me claiming to have the power to heal cancer, and offering as proof, a book I wrote making that claim, tales of my healing adventures, and the endorsement of hundreds of my disciples who agree that my stories are amazing and my book must be true. You would not accept any of that, nor can you expect us to.
If hundreds testified of the truth of your claims, it might be worth checking out.
That's quite a different scenario than mordant suggested. Hundreds of witnesses makes a big difference in whether you believe something to be true.
I think you misread Mordant's post. He did not claim hundreds of witnesses, but hundreds of disciples who all thought that his book and his personal testimony must be true. Just like Christianity, none of these disciples are witnesses to anything in the book...
As an example of the phenomenon Mordant is describing, I give you "Three Cups of Tea"... Lots of people got suckered in to Mortenson's story, only to find out later that it wasn't exactlytrue. The fact that, until Krakauer looked into discrepancies in the story, Mortenson had a lot of people who believed in his narrative as the truth, did good things based on that 'truth' and had moving, even lifechanging experiences from that 'truth' doesn't change the fact that it wasn't the truth.
The claims of Christianity, as well as other religions, do warrant investigation. Religion has been and is a powerful, influential force in the world, and it's claims should be examined. But if one examines the evidence and finds it lacking, the rational thing to do is reevaluate your own belief.
I think you misread Mordant's post. He did not claim hundreds of witnesses, but hundreds of disciples who all thought that his book and his personal testimony must be true. Just like Christianity, none of these disciples are witnesses to anything in the book...
Exactly, and I chose the word "disciples" deliberately, because in almost every religion, conspiracy theory or belief about subjective personal experience and the alleged bleed-thru to objective personal experience (think: The Secret), much of the credibility derives from a cohort of True Believers that provide the "so many people CAN'T be entirely wrong, there MUST be something to it" vibe. These are disciples or followers, who may make claims to being witnesses but most often haven't actually witnessed what they believe they have. They have seen something suggestive that, if true, would support their belief, and so they flesh that out into something that strengthens the feedback loop that supports their credulousness.
That the respondent here mentally transmuted "disciples" into "witnesses" tells me that his brain already has an association between disciples / followers / true believers and witnessing, which is no surprise, as that association is strongly reinforced in Christianity.
Having a lot of disciples would speak to my popularity and charisma and perhaps how facile I am but the only thing that would legitimately speak to the veracity of claims of cancer curing ability would be actual cured cancer patients whose illness AND recovery were documented and the impact, if any, of their treatments and mental state controlled for. But because people, especially people with family members who have cancer, so much NEED and WANT there to be answers will give them a strong motivation to bypass all that annoying scientific and empirical verification but Just Believing and Having Faith.
I think you misread Mordant's post. He did not claim hundreds of witnesses, but hundreds of disciples who all thought that his book and his personal testimony must be true. Just like Christianity, none of these disciples are witnesses to anything in the book...
As an example of the phenomenon Mordant is describing, I give you "Three Cups of Tea"... Lots of people got suckered in to Mortenson's story, only to find out later that it wasn't exactlytrue. The fact that, until Krakauer looked into discrepancies in the story, Mortenson had a lot of people who believed in his narrative as the truth, did good things based on that 'truth' and had moving, even lifechanging experiences from that 'truth' doesn't change the fact that it wasn't the truth.
The claims of Christianity, as well as other religions, do warrant investigation. Religion has been and is a powerful, influential force in the world, and it's claims should be examined. But if one examines the evidence and finds it lacking, the rational thing to do is reevaluate your own belief.
-NoCapo
The word endorsement (below) implies a stronger meaning than you're implying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
As a Christian I understand you seeing it that way. But when engaging in philosophical / intellectual debate, you cannot assume that the person you are debating with accepts scripture as evidence of anything. Certainly, no one would legitimately do so unless they had adequate substantiation of the Bible's claims to be special revelation from an invisible being in the heavens. Unless you can appeal to something more than the asserted authority of an invisible deity and the internal claims of scripture about itself, you cannot bring the scriptures or your own assertions or those of your accepted dogma, into the conversation.
It would be like me claiming to have the power to heal cancer, and offering as proof, a book I wrote making that claim, tales of my healing adventures, and the endorsement of hundreds of my disciples who agree that my stories are amazing and my book must be true. You would not accept any of that, nor can you expect us to.
Nevertheless, the book of Acts speaks of ~500 eye witnesses to Jesus' resurrection.
Last edited by Horn of ‘83; 05-30-2014 at 12:00 PM..
The bible is a great piece of literature written by a number of different authors and selected by religious officials and declared the word of God by mortals. The issue, I find, is when the bible is cited in an arguments as the way the world should be. The bible wasn't written in English so words are often changed and meanings altered in the translation. The bible must be read through a historical and cultural lens to see the significance of the text as originally intended (the world has changed a lot since the bible was originally written).
It might be that the Bible is cited to you for the fact that is because you are on a Religious Forum. I am willing to bet, if you go to the Sports Forum, there will be very little, unless the Angels are playing.
Nevertheless, the book of Acts speaks of ~500 eye witnesses to Jesus' resurrection.
This is simply an account that claims there were over 500 eyewitnesses. That is not the same thing as producing 500 eyewitnesses. Where are the accounts written by them, or the direct interviews, or anything else that would elevate this above an person claiming to be named Luke making a claim that there were eyewitnesses?
From this we cannot conclude that there are any eyewitnesses at all. We can't conclude that there weren't any, either. It is just a claim. And this speaks to the point of the OP. You cannot cite the Bible in a debate as proof of anything, at least not by itself. It must be corroborated from multiple sources.
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