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I grant you Finland, however you claimed THE SCANDINAVIAN countries (meaning all of them) had high rates, when this clearly is not the case.
You were wrong. Period. You invented the claim without proof.
I didn't invent anything. If I was wrong, it's because the sources I read where either wrong or outdated. Funny when I try to link the WHO reference on your wikipedia argument, I get page not found. When I look up WHO stats, I show more scandinavian countries like Sweden and Belgium ranking pretty high. Also, let's not forget Japan which is mostly non-religious.
Looks like almost all of Europe is in the red. You know, the countries where atheism is growing. Norway, Belgium, Finland and Sweden all rank higher than the US. Although it looks like the data is fairly old. I tried to find a recent study of worldwide statistics beyond wikipedia, but no luck so far. Not really worth the effort at this point. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong.
The claimed source of the statistics behind this map is WHO. This assumes the claim is truthful and the number crunching is accurate and that the statistics are the most current. I am not suggesting that the map is a fabrication, only that it is one rendering from one source and we don't know how recently it was updated. I would compare all available stats from various sources before drawing conclusions.
If you go to the WHO website they don't publish anything like this map or any other suicide information in summary form. You have to download their raw mortality database, which includes non-suicide mortality, and then digest and summarize it in some form. We can therefore conclude that (1) all summaries and graphics that claim WHO as a source are being just a little bit disingenuous, because at best WHO is the source of the underlying data, not the representation and interpretation of the data. WHO, perhaps in an attempt to walk some politically correct line, is vague and obtuse in what it actually says for quick perusal about suicide. They imply that it's a serious problem that needs attention, but without specific discussion of numbers and trends. They offer their raw data and invite people to draw their own conclusions. Neither you nor I have the time to crunch those raw numbers, which means we end up relying on those who do.
The only other thing I can see from the WHO web site is that their latest mortality data is from 2005. If I were going to publish credible reports from this data I would specify which version I am using and say something about the methodology that went into interpreting it. The suicide.org site does neither, and it would have a vested interest in overstating the problem in the Western countries where it mostly operates, so I would definitely take their map as just one thing to compare to many others. Again, I'm not impinging on the honesty or intentions of suicide.org, or trying to prove that the numbers are wrong; I am only stating that they are one bit of evidence and on a scale of 0-10 in credibility can't rate, as presented, higher than maybe a 4 or 5.
It is also telling what WHO prescribes as the main causes of suicide. Is it irreligion? Nope. It is mental illness (particularly depression), alcoholism and, in Asia, "impulsivity is a significant factor". A theist hoping to associate the proximal causes of suicide with irreligion or unbelief can't do that without discrediting WHO's analysis, and has to settle for showing unbelief to be a secondary cause -- that unbelief results in higher rates of alcoholism and depression and perhaps impulsiveness. What evidence do you have for that?
Finally, if unbelief or irreligion is the cause of suicidal behavior, WHICH unbelief or irreligion? Unbelief in Christianity? Fundamentalist Christianity? Islam? Hinduism? Buddhism? Janism? Or does it require unbelief in ALL gods or religions?
Looks like almost all of Europe is in the red. You know, the countries where atheism is growing. Norway, Belgium, Finland and Sweden all rank higher than the US. Although it looks like the data is fairly old. I tried to find a recent study of worldwide statistics beyond wikipedia, but no luck so far. Not really worth the effort at this point. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong.
I wasn't aware that black metal had died out, but it is pretty much the only form of music that promoted burning down churches. That's a product of an anti-God society. That's hate, not love.
If you want to go down that rabbit hole, it (Norway) also produced a Christian terrorist like this fine crusader for love:
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I didn't invent anything. If I was wrong, it's because the sources I read where either wrong or outdated. Funny when I try to link the WHO reference on your wikipedia argument, I get page not found. When I look up WHO stats, I show more scandinavian countries like Sweden and Belgium ranking pretty high. Also, let's not forget Japan which is mostly non-religious.
Errr... Jeffbase40, since when is Belgium a Scandinavian country?
I will concur different databases give different results. In all cases the US is very close to the Scandinavian ones, being less to some, and more to others.
Your point about religion being an influence is not made.
There are numerous articles that note that these Scandinavian countries which are supposed to be so happy have an extraordinary suicide rate. Even in the link that you sent me, Finland rates higher than the US.
By the way, you have ZERO proof that my religious beliefs are nothing more than a fantasy. Why don't you try sticking to facts instead of being disrespectful?
Finland is not really a "Scandinavian" country. It is a former Warsaw Pact nation, and those nations have been traumatized by the collapse of the USSR. Sucide rates are high there because Finland, indeed most of the former Warsaw Pact nations, have had a very difficult time transitioning between communism and capitalism. The result is a lot of people, especially the young, falling through the cracks ending up jobless and homeless. Alcoholism in Russia, for instance, is rampant.
Those are extenuating circumstances that do not represent the norm. If you look at places like Norway, Sweden, etc., and in fact, most places in Europe, they are doing quite well compared to us. They have lower rates of violent crime, their societies do not spawn serial killers, they have lower infant mortality rates, a MUCH better health care system, their kids do much better in school, and they have far more progressive attitudes than many Americans, who still think ideas from the first half of the 20th Century still work.
Plus we are oh so afraid of socialism, like a boogyman under the bed. The result is that we are slowly losing our First World status. The only thing keeping us afloat right now is an outstanding infrastructure built during a time when people weren't stupidly anti-government and people thought paying taxes was a patriotic duty (taxes on income over $200,000 were as high as 90%). Now, partly thanks to the religious right, we want to maintain a 60-70 year-old First World infrastructure, but the right-wing doesn't want to pay for it. Lower taxes, they scream, when the governments cannot keep things together with what they take in now.
Even in my local area, one school has already been shut down and now the library is in danger of being closed - all thanks to a lack of funds. If this is happening here, I'm sure it's happening in towns all across America.
Now, I realize I've gone far afield into politics a bit, but one has to realize that part and parcel of this new anti-government, anti-tax crusade is the religious right, those like you who THINK that the rest of the world is still locked in post-war poverty, unemployment, and misery. It is nationalistic propaganda that makes you think that America is doing great ... except it's not. Every time I go out onto my porch, I look down the hill and see boarded up shops and vacant lots where once a thriving business district once was. Houses are falling apart, immaculate gardens are overgrown with weeds, the roads are crumbling, the power shorts out every time we get a small gust of wind ... and people still think, hey hey, we're doing grrrreeeat!
That head-in-the-sand attitude is what has caused us to lag behind in the first place, unable to really compete on the global market. As I've said before, history is littered with the corpses of once great civilizations which failed to adapt to a changing world. Conservatism and fundamentalism are almost fanatically against change, ergo, it is like running a marathon against the rest of the world with a ball and chain tied around our ankles.
And the Bible Belt is probably the most dysfunctional region of the Western World, but I'll save that for another post. Be forewarned.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Finland is not really a "Scandinavian" country. It is a former Warsaw Pact nation, and those nations have been traumatized by the collapse of the USSR. Sucide rates are high there because Finland, indeed most of the former Warsaw Pact nations, have had a very difficult time transitioning between communism and capitalism. The result is a lot of people, especially the young, falling through the cracks ending up jobless and homeless. Alcoholism in Russia, for instance, is rampant.
Finland was never part of the Warsaw Pact. It was part of Sweden for 6 centuries; that pretty well makes it Scandinavian.
From the late 12th century until 1809, Finland was part of Sweden, a legacy reflected in the prevalence of the Swedish language and its official status. It then became an autonomous Grand Duchy within the Russian Empire until the Russian Revolution, which prompted the Finnish Declaration of Independence. This was followed by a civil war where the pro-Bolshevik "Reds" were defeated by the pro-conservative "Whites" with support from the German Empire. After a brief attempt to establish a monarchy, Finland became a republic.
Well, lets discuss this aspect of Fundamentalist Christianity which is absent in most atheists that I know: Self Hatred.
Fundamentalist are the most self-loathing subgroup of any religion. Their behaviors, hatred of others, open hatred of homosexuals, misogyny, and an underlying theme that man is somehow "Flawed" and must be "Redeemed" in order to be acceptable..........what part of that does not reek of self hatred and self loathing? And we wonder why these people have lower self esteem, higher somatic illnesses (depression obesity personality disorder) and then compare that to someone who has a philosophy of self- empowerment without the need for an imaginary being? Please explain that?
Well, lets discuss this aspect of Fundamentalist Christianity which is absent in most atheists that I know: Self Hatred.
Fundamentalist are the most self-loathing subgroup of any religion. Their behaviors, hatred of others, open hatred of homosexuals, misogyny, and an underlying theme that man is somehow "Flawed" and must be "Redeemed" in order to be acceptable..........what part of that does not reek of self hatred and self loathing? And we wonder why these people have lower self esteem, higher somatic illnesses (depression obesity personality disorder) and then compare that to someone who has a philosophy of self- empowerment without the need for an imaginary being? Please explain that?
Yet I see atheists flood message boards and promote plenty of hatred towards Christian beliefs. Kinda ridiculous if you really believe God doesn't exist. I'm certainly not blowing a gasket over the teachings of Buddha or Zeus.
The only hatred from true born again Christian is the hatred of sin. And that's a good thing.
Last edited by jeffbase40; 06-22-2014 at 06:21 PM..
Yet I see atheists flood message boards and promote plenty of hatred towards Christian beliefs. Kinda ridiculous if you really believe God doesn't exist. I'm certainly not blowing a gasket over the teachings of Buddha or Zeus.
The only hatred from true born again Christian is the hatred of sin. And that's a good thing.
Actually.......I grew up in one of those churches...and no, hatred of sin is not the only hatred.
Not at all.
I do not want to use the term hatred as much as the term "Unhealthy"......My point is that it is a known psychological phenomenon that all hatred is self hatred, and hatred of others stems from hatred of self.....and that could include anything from beliefs to appearance. I would oppose anything unhealthy.
On the other hand, I certainly do not blow a gasket over the teachings of Buddha, because so much of it has been absorbed into so many different psychological/therapeutic paradigms. The teaching of Buddhism are in many ways much healthier than those of Christianity. And proven more useful as well, even if many do not understand or realize that.
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