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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,919,184 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Yet I see atheists flood message boards and promote plenty of hatred towards Christian beliefs. Kinda ridiculous if you really believe God doesn't exist. I'm certainly not blowing a gasket over the teachings of Buddha or Zeus.
The only hatred from true born again Christian is the hatred of sin. And that's a good thing.
Nor do you believe in them, for various reasons.
Quote:
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” —Stephen F Roberts
Slow day huh? Well you are consistently... ahh I better not say it. lol
See? rather than substantiate your views in any way you simply get snide and personal again. You really have literally nothing to offer do you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
So you are 100% confident that when you die, that's the end? Proof?
Never said that ever. I am however 100% confident that the current state of the evidence I have been shown does suggest that that is the reality however. Given that ALL the evidence we do currently have suggests human consciousness is tied irremovably to the brain. And NONE of the evidence we have (much less from you) even begins to suggest a disconnect.
And even when evidence is incomplete.... as it is with our understanding of human consciousness.... when ALL of it goes one way and NONE of it goes another way..... then I find it illogical foolery to take option 2. So I take option 1. You take option 2 for reasons entirely opaque to me.
Well Nozz, I'm afraid that neither of our personal experiences can be useful here.
If you say so. But if you think it is possible to think there is a god without engaging in erroneous thinking and subscribing to truth claims on zero evidence then I am agog to hear how.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
Let us just know that theism in and of itself is not going to hurt your kid or anyone else's. By definition, it is just a belief in a deity
Then you simply need to improve your definitions. Because JUST a belief in a deity is not theism. It is deism. Theism goes further than deism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
Then what was that line about, if not your kid becoming a theist?
It is exactly what it says. I do not want my children to subscribe to entirely unsubstantiated notions. That is NOT saying that I do not want my kid to become a theist. I would be happy for them to become a theist if they find substantiation upon which to do so. In fact if they manage to do that, and they show it to me, I will not only be happy for them to be a theist..... I will turn theist WITH them.
So now that I clarified what I meant, you can now happily retract what you claimed I said when I never actually did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The Scandinavian countries have some of the highest suicide rates in the world. Higher than the US. They also have some of the darkest black metal music out there. So much for atheist society = happiness huh?
Figures and substantiation for these claims please? You were asked to give figures to back up this exact claim before and you did your usual thing of simply running away. Now here you are doing it again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by undfan
Where did you get your statistics?
He made them up. He does this. A LOT. Pretty much daily actually. Its getting old. And highly transparent and predictable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
By the way, you have ZERO proof that my religious beliefs are nothing more than a fantasy. Why don't you try sticking to facts instead of being disrespectful?
The evidence your beliefs are fantasy is in your ongoing, consistent and unchangeable inability to substantiate them in any way. And pointing out this IS a fact and not disrespectful in any way. You merely pretend things are disrespectful so you can pretend you are offended all the time.... to avoid engaging in any actual substantive conversation with anyone.
You simply make things up and when challenged on them you throw your toys out of the pram and storm off.
If you say so. But if you think it is possible to think there is a god without engaging in erroneous thinking and subscribing to truth claims on zero evidence then I am agog to hear how.
Simple. To believe in something is not to make the claim that it exists. It is just a belief, and I've known many theists (even a few Christians) who told me they did not know and would not claim there is a god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Then you simply need to improve your definitions. Because JUST a belief in a deity is not theism. It is deism. Theism goes further than deism.
I don't need to "improve my definitions", but maybe you need to go back and realize there are two definitions of "theism". One does in fact assume beyond the belief in a god or gods, but the other is just that and nothing more. Taking the second definition, deism may very well go further now. Check the first definition of it here, for instance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
It is exactly what it says. I do not want my children to subscribe to entirely unsubstantiated notions. That is NOT saying that I do not want my kid to become a theist. I would be happy for them to become a theist if they find substantiation upon which to do so. In fact if they manage to do that, and they show it to me, I will not only be happy for them to be a theist..... I will turn theist WITH them.
Your child has every right (legal and moral) to believe in a god without substantiation. Would you also make it a point to tell them not to believe in a destined love? A destiny of any kind? What about an afterlife? What about an infinite universe? All are unsubstantiated. What makes it ok is the same thing that makes theism in and of itself ok - it doesn't hurt anyone, including your kid.
Your child has every right (legal and moral) to believe in a god without substantiation. Would you also make it a point to tell them not to believe in a destined love? A destiny of any kind? What about an afterlife? What about an infinite universe? All are unsubstantiated. What makes it ok is the same thing that makes theism in and of itself ok - it doesn't hurt anyone, including your kid.
Believing, for example, in the existence of One True Love could be incredibly harmful, depending on what they did with that "information". Believing in some sort of externally bestowed "destiny" can encourage narcissistic leanings and feelings of entitlement and/or laziness. The only thing on your list that is arguably harmless is an infinite universe.
I think it's always best to be humble in our pronouncements. If you want to believe in something, state it is a belief for which you have no evidence at least.
Believing, for example, in the existence of One True Love could be incredibly harmful, depending on what they did with that "information". Believing in some sort of externally bestowed "destiny" can encourage narcissistic leanings and feelings of entitlement and/or laziness. The only thing on your list that is arguably harmless is an infinite universe.
I think it's always best to be humble in our pronouncements. If you want to believe in something, state it is a belief for which you have no evidence at least.
Belief vs knowledge.......yes the comparison to religion vs science is obvious
If I suggest that certain behaviors are unhealthy, and I discourage those behaviors, based on years of education, experience, and a plethora of scientific articles, books, journals, then I hope I am coming across as concerned and helpful and not as a meddling Fundie.
For example, if you want to use St John's Wort along with your antidepressants, while not recommended, if you are an adult and you choose to then you will, plain and simple. However, if you are under the care of our service, we will flat out tell you not to do it if you want care from us. That is because we have scientific research that shows the dangers of mixing the two.
Scientific knowledge, vs popular belief. Many people mistakenly believe what they have been told by the ads, the media, the guy at GNC, which is that St John's Wort cures depression. However, taken with antidepressants, the herb will interfere with the metabolism, not only rendering the prescribed meds less effective BUT creating certain toxic metabolites as well.
In this case, as in all cases, we follow science, that which can be repeated, demonstrated and verified.
I do not see how that is comparable to what a fundie Christian says, waving a Bible and saying "Oh NO NO THIS is the truth" The Fundie's truth cannot be verified, demonstrated or repeated.
Bottom line, is healthy vs unhealthy behavior. Knowledge and reality, while not always pleasant, is more healthy than retreating into a fantasy world, and certainly more so than forcing one's fantasies onto another.
Believing, for example, in the existence of One True Love could be incredibly harmful, depending on what they did with that "information".
Well two people can believe this and still let go when need be. We already know we'll be letting go sooner or later. And you can believe in this while also believing you can be wrong about who you think is your destined love... I can't think of any other concerns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Believing in some sort of externally bestowed "destiny" can encourage narcissistic leanings and feelings of entitlement and/or laziness.
Same as above. We can still know that we get things wrong sometimes, that maybe something we thought we were destined for, isn't what we were destined for.
But I will concede the points, that there are reasons to be concerned about these beliefs... Kinda makes my argument stronger, however, because belief in a god in the general sense doesn't come close. You have to tack stuff onto it, before we can talk of any risks here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I think it's always best to be humble in our pronouncements. If you want to believe in something, state it is a belief for which you have no evidence at least.
I often find it's the hyper-religious who cannot seem to manage this. Theists outside of Christian picket lines are no bother to me, and I consider that a healthy standpoint. I don't even get upset when someone hands me a pamphlet. I just tell them, "I'm an atheist, so I might not read this, just so you know" and throw it away later. But the ones that will argue that there is definitely a god do get to me. The only reason I give my fellow atheists so much grief over their bold claims is that I generally hold them to higher standards.
That being said, should atheists also be humble in their pronouncements if they believe "There is no god"? Why or why not?
Actually.......I grew up in one of those churches...and no, hatred of sin is not the only hatred.
Not at all.
I do not want to use the term hatred as much as the term "Unhealthy"......My point is that it is a known psychological phenomenon that all hatred is self hatred, and hatred of others stems from hatred of self.....and that could include anything from beliefs to appearance. I would oppose anything unhealthy.
On the other hand, I certainly do not blow a gasket over the teachings of Buddha, because so much of it has been absorbed into so many different psychological/therapeutic paradigms. The teaching of Buddhism are in many ways much healthier than those of Christianity. And proven more useful as well, even if many do not understand or realize that.
I challenge you to present at least one teaching in the Bible (and no OT laws please) that is clearly unhealthy. From my perspective, 90% of our social problems would be solved if everyone followed the Bible. Dave Ramsey is an example of someone who has built a large business helping thousands of people get out of debt using principles in the Bible.
Errr... Jeffbase40, since when is Belgium a Scandinavian country?
I will concur different databases give different results. In all cases the US is very close to the Scandinavian ones, being less to some, and more to others.
Your point about religion being an influence is not made.
Well my mistake then. Wow, you won a small point for a technicality. Give yourself a pat.
My point still stands. The evidence suggests a link between atheism and suicide. And why wouldn't it? There is no hope or meaning in life with atheism.
In 2004, the American Journal of Psychiatry reported the following:
“ Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder. No differences in the level of subjective and objective depression, hopelessness, or stressful life events were found.[6] ”
The website Adherents.com reported the following in respect to atheism and suicide:
“ Pitzer College sociologist Phil Zuckerman compiled country-by-country survey, polling and census numbers relating to atheism, agnosticism, disbelief in God and people who state they are non-religious or have no religious preference. These data were published in the chapter titled "Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns" in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, ed. by Michael Martin, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, UK (2005). In examining various indicators of societal health, Zuckerman concludes about suicide: "Concerning suicide rates, this is the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than secular nations. According to the 2003 World Health Organization's report on international male suicides rates (which compared 100 countries), of the top ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, all but one (Sri Lanka) are strongly irreligious nations with high levels of atheism. It is interesting to note, however, that of the top remaining nine nations leading the world in male suicide rates, all are former Soviet/Communist nations, such as Belarus, Ukraine, and Latvia. Of the bottom ten nations with the lowest male suicide rates, all are highly religious nations with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism."[10]
In my view, atheism is hope. Hope for a better world here and even a better afterlife than any god I've ever read about is willing to offer. Trapped in someone else's design? Only permitted to do what they wish for me, and my reward is a rather boring existence in eternity once my natural life is over? I cannot think a more hopeless situation.
And there is no meaning to this world, with or without a god. I dig Christian contemporary music, and two of the artists have referred to it as a "waiting room". May be biblical, maybe not. But is this really a dynamite view of our lives?
If there is a link between atheism and suicide, it is a matter of correlation not causation so I don't get the point... of this point you're making.
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