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So you admit to the bad advice of the OT ? And you must realize that the entire Myth of Jesus is based on the creation myth, the need for humans to be saved....?
Start here Mark Chapter 16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
SO Bring yourself, and two other of your "saved" Followers. You will all three drink of a poison which I concocted, and the contents will be unknown to you. IF your Biblical advice is correct, you will not become ill. Nor will you suffer any effects when I present you a Crotalus adamanteus to pass around amongst yourselves. Then, if you are still alove, we will go to the local hospital, where you will place your hands on three sick people of my choosing, and they will be instantly healed.
Sound good?
The verses you quote from Mark 16 were scribal additions primarily because the earliest texts of Mark show the book ending with verse 8. For years some Appalachian misguided Christians have tried the snake-handling faith--a few to their final disillusionment.
I am a Christian and it is no easy task to be one. The book that speaks of Jesus was written by flawed men of faith who were trying to communicate where their faith had brought them. Later other men tried to edit the original writings to reflect their own beliefs and sometimes prejudices. Or, in the case of Mark, to provide a more satisfying ending than verse 8 gives to the book.
There is absolutely no universal proof, thank God, of even the existence of Jesus. It is arrived at through faith---a faith religion. Not one with the Bible as an icon, or Noah's ark suddenly discovered, or someone's hands and feet suddenly oozing blood. These are all the hallmarks of idolaters.
Here are the hallmarks of real Christians:
They won't hassle or argue with you because you aren't Christian.
They don't see themselves as better than any other person, regardless of faith or lack thereof.
They see a need to be kindest toward their most fervent critics.
They know God will choose those to whom He will give faith.
They treat other people's feelings as more important than their own rights, and other people's rights as more important than their own feelings.
They don't worship money.
They don't worship money.
They don't worship money.
Consequently, due to the above characteristics, they are rarely spotted.
Here are the hallmarks of real Christians:
They won't hassle or argue with you because you aren't Christian.
They don't see themselves as better than any other person, regardless of faith or lack thereof.
They see a need to be kindest toward their most fervent critics.
They know God will choose those to whom He will give faith.
They treat other people's feelings as more important than their own rights, and other people's rights as more important than their own feelings.
They don't worship money.
They don't worship money.
They don't worship money.
Consequently, due to the above characteristics, they are rarely spotted.
Yeah. I only knew two in my entire life. One was my step-grandfather, who is deceased now.
The other was a long term friend who changed on the first 5 after he became a Baptist. Prior to that, he would have fit into the category of a true Christian, but alas, he is not one anymore. Which as far as I can see, makes Christianity a dead religion.
I knew Jeffbase would run with his pointed tail between his legs when confronted with that one. You warden, were able to see it. I would also point out that Paul discourages Marriage as he says it is "too worldly" and distracts one "from the Lord" SO, the Bible advises people NOT to get married, UNLESS you follow David, wherethe Bible commands to and Kill any husband and take his wife.
Or the part about selling everything in order to be a Christian, but you covered that in the last 3.
Not that it is bad advice, non-materialism is NOT bad advise, the Buddha proved that. But outside of a monastery, it is not practiced .....
Either way, my challenge stands. If Jeffbase can fulfill the terms I set forth as mentioned in the Bible as advice/proof, then I will convert back to Christianity, as proof is served.
BACK to original topic, it is NOT ok for Atheists to act like Fundies. We atheists hold to a higher standard of reality. It is not acceptable for Fundies to act like Fundies either. I would reference Warden's post above as to that.
Of course, we all have the freedom to act as we choose. But consider this: who would want to be like a fundie? A person who has no self esteem, who lives in fear, who has nothing going for them perhaps?
But seriously? Why would anyone want to be a hypocrite? Anyone who professes to a religion is, by nature, representing that religion. Fundies paint the worst picture of Christianity with their actions. Who would be proud of that?
When I encounter clients who are former Christians, like myself, most of the time, it turns out, that they had a bad experience with either fundamentalists or Catholics and walked away form the church. And these experiences are NEVER about the theology, or the doctrine, or the teachings, they are about the attitudes, the abuse, the hate-filled people. SO if the actions of these people drive other, would be followers away, then what does that say for their religion ?
It is not acceptable for fundies to act like fundies, unless they need to use fear, guilt and intimidation to gather and keep followers. Such loyalty is based not in peace or love, but in fear. Fear Worked for Hitler, Stalin, for a while, but in the end, they too fell, like their religion will some day.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,922,771 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
The verses you quote from Mark 16 were scribal additions primarily because the earliest texts of Mark show the book ending with verse 8. For years some Appalachian misguided Christians have tried the snake-handling faith--a few to their final disillusionment.
I am a Christian and it is no easy task to be one. The book that speaks of Jesus was written by flawed men of faith who were trying to communicate where their faith had brought them. Later other men tried to edit the original writings to reflect their own beliefs and sometimes prejudices. Or, in the case of Mark, to provide a more satisfying ending than verse 8 gives to the book.
There is absolutely no universal proof, thank God, of even the existence of Jesus. It is arrived at through faith---a faith religion. Not one with the Bible as an icon, or Noah's ark suddenly discovered, or someone's hands and feet suddenly oozing blood. These are all the hallmarks of idolaters.
Here are the hallmarks of real Christians:
They won't hassle or argue with you because you aren't Christian.
They don't see themselves as better than any other person, regardless of faith or lack thereof.
They see a need to be kindest toward their most fervent critics.
They know God will choose those to whom He will give faith.
They treat other people's feelings as more important than their own rights, and other people's rights as more important than their own feelings.
They don't worship money.
They don't worship money.
They don't worship money.
Consequently, due to the above characteristics, they are rarely spotted.
From an atheist to a christian, thank you for this post.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all christians lived by it?
Yes. Again, to believe something is real is an internal claim that it is real. Otherwise you can not think it is real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
If anyone's failing to read, it's you.
No it is, has been, and continues to be YOU. Here is the proof AGAIN:
1) I claimed that I do not want children subscribing to ideas that have no substantiation.
2) You then erroneously claimed I actively do not want my child to become theist.
3) I said no, this was an error, I would be happy for my child to become theist IF he did so based on substantiation.
4) You then repeated the erroneous claim in a later post that I actively do not want my child to choose theism.
This desperate, fetid, and ongoing need you have to change what I said into something easier for you to attack is getting as old as it is transparent.
AGAIN to clarify: I simply do not care what my children or any children choose to believe. I merely want them to do so based on substantiation. Nothing more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
They are very clear to me
That your own error is clear to you is also clear. The fact remains however that mere belief in a creator agent and nothing more is deism. Theism goes further than this with such beliefs as revelation, an interventionalist god, a god one can contact through media such as prayer, and much more.
DEISM: noun: belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.
THEISM: noun: belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.
So you admit to the bad advice of the OT ? And you must realize that the entire Myth of Jesus is based on the creation myth, the need for humans to be saved....?
Start here Mark Chapter 16 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
SO Bring yourself, and two other of your "saved" Followers. You will all three drink of a poison which I concocted, and the contents will be unknown to you. IF your Biblical advice is correct, you will not become ill. Nor will you suffer any effects when I present you a Crotalus adamanteus to pass around amongst yourselves. Then, if you are still alove, we will go to the local hospital, where you will place your hands on three sick people of my choosing, and they will be instantly healed.
Sound good?
You have presented ZERO proof that Jesus is just a myth. The OT continues numerous prophecies written hundreds of years before Christ that were fulfilled. That alone tips the scale in my favor since you offer no counter-weight.
As for your faith test, it's ridiculous and flawed. The passage in Mark is debatable whether it is a legit passage or not. It doesn't really gel with the rest of the Bible. Secondly, the passage doesn't command that I drink poison or handle snakes. It is suggesting characteristics of Christians who have faith. It is completely different to force God to a test by flirting with death. In fact, Matthew 4:7 commands that I don't try to test God. That actually shows a lack of faith.
In Acts 28:3–5, we see God protected Paul from a snake bite, but Paul didn't go out seeking snakes.
Yes. Again, to believe something is real is an internal claim that it is real. Otherwise you can not think it is real.
Of course you can. You can believe something without making the claim (even to yourself) that you are correct. It's really just, thinking that it exists but knowing you could be wrong. No claims made whatsoever. I would hope every atheist convinced that there is no god remains aware they could be wrong. Otherwise, they too are subscribing to truth claims on zero evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
1) I claimed that I do not want children subscribing to ideas that have no substantiation.
2) You then erroneously claimed I actively do not want my child to become theist.
3) I said no, this was an error, I would be happy for my child to become theist IF he did so based on substantiation.
4) You then repeated the erroneous claim in a later post that I actively do not want my child to choose theism.
IOW, it's exactly as I said it was in my last post:
This at very least means you don't want your son to be a theist until he has found evidence of a god. Right or wrong, that is your position. But my question to you (that you continue to dodge) was that since you are OK with "There is no god" (a truth claim based on zero evidence), what makes theism any worse than positive/"strong" atheism, which you are defending when you defend the statement "There is no god". You're not seeing the contradiction, clearly. Perhaps you are blinded by a prejudice. At any rate, you should open your eyes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
AGAIN to clarify: I simply do not care what my children or any children choose to believe. I merely want them to do so based on substantiation. Nothing more.
Then why tell a kid "There is no god". Is that not also a belief based on no substantiation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
The fact remains however that mere belief in a creator agent and nothing more is deism. Theism goes further than this with such beliefs as revelation, an interventionalist god, a god one can contact through media such as prayer, and much more.
Incorrect. And I will use another online dictionary to prove you wrong...
Quote:
deism: the belief in a single god who does not act to influence events, and whose existence has no connection with religions, religious buildings, or religious books, etc.
As you can see, deism not only assumes that there is a creator (1 assumption) but also that it/he/she does not influence events (2 assumptions) and is not affiliated with any religion (3 assumptions), whereas
Theism is only a belief in the existence of a god or gods. It is based on one assumption and that is all. You have been wrong about these terms. Will you now just admit it and move on?
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,922,771 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
..............
This at very least means you don't want your son to be a theist until he has found evidence of a god. Right or wrong, that is your position. But my question to you (that you continue to dodge) was that since you are OK with "There is no god" (a truth claim based on zero evidence), what makes theism any worse than positive/"strong" atheism, which you are defending when you defend the statement "There is no god". You're not seeing the contradiction, clearly. Perhaps you are blinded by a prejudice. At any rate, you should open your eyes.
Do YOU know there is no tooth fairy, Santa Claus or Easter Bunny? There is as much evidence or lack of evidence for those entities as there is for a god. Why are the arguments against the first three not applicable to the later, a god?
Quote:
Then why tell a kid "There is no god". Is that not also a belief based on no substantiation?
See above, for the same reason at some point the kid is told that the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist.
Do YOU know there is no tooth fairy, Santa Claus or Easter Bunny? There is as much evidence or lack of evidence for those entities as there is for a god. Why are the arguments against the first three not applicable to the later, a god?
See above, for the same reason at some point the kid is told that the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist.
A single fulfilled Bible prophecy or archaeological find is one point of evidence favoring Christianity verses your examples which always have zero points. Even more so, in some examples, the origins can be traced back like Santa Claus originating from Saint Nicholas. Do you have ANY proof that the authors of the Bible were creating works of fiction and fantasy?
A single fulfilled Bible prophecy or archaeological find is one point of evidence favoring Christianity verses your examples which always have zero points. Even more so, in some examples, the origins can be traced back like Santa Claus originating from Saint Nicholas. Do you have ANY proof that the authors of the Bible were creating works of fiction and fantasy?
Well, there's that whole talking snake, making people out of dirt, and cramming two of every critter on the planet on an ancient barge stuff.
For starters.
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