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"The only logical conclusion is to say 'we don't know'".
What the user you are replying to will tell you however is that "I dont know" is a preference - a preference by people who do not want to believe in god - and is not valid grounds for choosing to not think there is a god as defailt and go from there.
The same user will then tell you that atheists love their ignorance and want to keep it because they like not knowing.
Alas when he is finished this consistent misrepresentation of atheists you will likely find he has not actually said a single thing to positively support anything he has said - but just piled a little pyramid of misrepresentations of atheists on top of each other in some mutually supporting - but entirely foundationless - pretty little structure.
While there is likely much truth in the above.... that education correlates and probably even causes a high reduction in religiosity or even god belief.... we should still remain wary of correlation-causation errors. Perhaps there is some aspect of being ABLE to obtain such education that is also causative of reduced religiosity too.
I am convinced by many of the links between education and a reduction in religiosity. Especially education in mathematics of all things which seems to correlate really heavily.
But I would be wary to ever stop exploring correlation errors on it too and maybe seek out the other links between people who have both education and reduced religiosity.
Obviously, America's strange obsession with religion is the result of a combination of factors. The fact that American students seem abysmally ignorant in science and mathematics when compared to the rest of the world seems to play into the idea that there is correlation - if not causation - between religiosity and education.
Another little discussed factor, too, is coming out of WWII as the only major nation untouched by the war. Sure, we lost men in the war, but America was never physically threatened by bombings, invasions, battles on our soil, holocausts, civilian deaths, or being occupied by a foreign power. After witnessing first hand the horrific death and destruction of that war, huge swathes of the European population lost their faith in God. How could God NOT intervene in something so terrible? Even some of the US soldiers returned home with a decreased level of faith - but Americans always knew that they could return home to their picturesque neighborhoods with mom and dad on the porch of their pristine home with a hot apple pie waiting to be eaten. Many European soldiers returned home to bombed out buildings and dead families.
To Americans, the outcome of that war was like a gift from God, for it elevated America to being the richest, most powerful nation on earth with the highest standard of living anywhere in the world. Who wouldn't be all thankful to the Lord Almighty for such an end to the fighting? Europeans on the other hand, spent the next 50 years rebuilding, burying the dead, and mourning the loss of an entire generation.
Granted, there's more to it than that, but that's the synopsis, at any rate.
If one has "no evidence" (for whatever reason they don't)...The only conclusion that comports with a Pure Logic protocol...is NO conclusion.
Sure, but that does not include simply not believing in a god. Atheism in and of itself is not illogical. It's not necessarily a comment on whether a god exists or whether evidence of a god exists. It is simply a lack of faith in either.
Humanism is more complicated than some here realize, and humanism would offer the ultimate moral high ground.
First, there is no God. There is no Jesus, returning to save the world. All efforts to improve the human experience MUST come from Humans, and must come from Humans NOW! Advances in medicine, science, ways to grow healthy foods to combat famine and disease, ways to transport goods which people need effectively and quickly, without harming the environment, THESE are the challenges of humanity.
The Humanist steps in and gets to work. The Christian might say "Oh don't bother, Jesus will be here any second and fix it"
Humanism stresses education. Many religions stress ignorance. Proof of this is the entire mess called the European Middle ages AKA the Dark ages, brought to you by the Catholic church, AND in the Muslim nations where women are not allowed to be educated today, brought to you by the Islamic faith. Humanism sees no barrier to educating everyone, and empowering people with knowledge, as opposed to censoring and banning books. Humanism states that the individual can choose his or her on path based on interests and abilities, not based on scriptural commands.
And then there is this: War, that which one fundamentalist Christian explained to me as "Justifiable hatred of God's Enemies." And who are these enemies? Well, anyone who does not share one's beliefs. SO to the Christians, Atheists are the enemy. To the Fundamentalist Christian, Liberal Christians are the enemy. To the Baptists, the Assembly of God is the enemy. To the Sunnies, the Shiites are the enemies, and of course, to the members of First Baptist Church, the members of Hillcrest Baptist church are the enemies. The Point being, this type of religious thinking encourages hate, violence and murder, like the Bible and the Koran both do. TO the Humanist, the sanctity of human life and the enhancement of the human experience is the primary foundation for human rights. And I have been told repeatedly, that the term "Human rights" is a very naughty word in many religious circles.
So, since religions come and go, as do the gods or god of the day, humanity remains the constant, and our human experience in this life is real. Our awareness is real, and our happiness and sadness are real as well. That is tied into our brains, something that dies with us when we die. When we die, our beliefs die with us, even thesitic beliefs. It is just that many of us do not have time for imaginary beings, as we are fixing real problems instead.
It was once said
"A winner is part of the solution and a loser is part of the problem"
From my point of view, hatred, racism, war, intolerance are parts of the problem, and these are problems created by and influenced by certain religions. The solution is not in religion and prayer, but in getting out and being part of the solution, educating oneself and solving problems, one person at a time. That is being part of the solution.
LOL!!!
"The only logical conclusion is to say 'we don't know'".
"Oh so you don't know then?"
"Except for me of course. I know"
LOL.
Since the thread has been almost entirely off topic since around post #81, this at least gave me cause for amusement.
I will be here all week, Cruithne. Without prolonging this line of discussion, I would point you to this particular resurrected post from another thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayarea4
I agree with Huxley's position that the problem of whether a God exists or not insoluble. But agnosticism means more than that to me. I believe that we human beings are not capable of understanding what God is, if there is such a thing as God. Our brains aren't big enough. It would be like asking a dog to learn calculus. It's beyond a dog's capacity to even conceptualize what math is, let alone calculus. But that doesn't mean that math doesn't exist, only that a dog can't understand it.
A creator with the power to fashion the universe and all things within it would be so incredibly complex that we couldn't begin to conceptualize what it is. (And I say "it" because it would be nonsensical to assume that such a supernatural force possessed a penis or vagina like we do. I think it's equally nonsensical to claim to know how God feels or what God thinks. I also think it's vain of we humans to visualize such a force as possessing human-like anatomy or emotions.)
Those who say that they know what God wants or that God has guided them are basing their beliefs on what they have been trained to believe by whatever religious system they have been exposed to. You are never going to hear a Southern Baptist say that God told her that drinking, dancing, smoking, premarital sex and playing cards are OK. You are never going to hear a Muslim say that Allah has instructed him to treat women as equals. No Orthodox Jew is going to receive a revelation from God that pork and seafood are perfectly good to eat. Believers may feel that they are being guided toward a certain course of action by God, but whatever guidance they receive is something that was already programmed within their brains.
The human brain is an amazingly powerful instrument, more powerful than the most sophisticated computer. It can give us dreams, hallucinations, visions and insights, and it can take us on spiritual journeys if we tap into its power. I think what a lot of people call "God" is really just the power of the human brain to create those experiences for us and conceive of the idea that something can be greater than ourselves. This ability to imagine is what separates us from the animals.
God is a special case . . . unlike your favorite foils . . . unicorns, leprechauns, Santa, or the FSM. It is not a case of special pleading . . . it is a case of BEING a special case.
Humanism is more complicated than some here realize, and humanism would offer the ultimate moral high ground.
First, there is no God. There is no Jesus, returning to save the world. All efforts to improve the human experience MUST come from Humans, and must come from Humans NOW! Advances in medicine, science, ways to grow healthy foods to combat famine and disease, ways to transport goods which people need effectively and quickly, without harming the environment, THESE are the challenges of humanity.
The Humanist steps in and gets to work. The Christian might say "Oh don't bother, Jesus will be here any second and fix it"
Humanism stresses education. Many religions stress ignorance. Proof of this is the entire mess called the European Middle ages AKA the Dark ages, brought to you by the Catholic church, AND in the Muslim nations where women are not allowed to be educated today, brought to you by the Islamic faith. Humanism sees no barrier to educating everyone, and empowering people with knowledge, as opposed to censoring and banning books. Humanism states that the individual can choose his or her on path based on interests and abilities, not based on scriptural commands.
And then there is this: War, that which one fundamentalist Christian explained to me as "Justifiable hatred of God's Enemies." And who are these enemies? Well, anyone who does not share one's beliefs. SO to the Christians, Atheists are the enemy. To the Fundamentalist Christian, Liberal Christians are the enemy. To the Baptists, the Assembly of God is the enemy. To the Sunnies, the Shiites are the enemies, and of course, to the members of First Baptist Church, the members of Hillcrest Baptist church are the enemies. The Point being, this type of religious thinking encourages hate, violence and murder, like the Bible and the Koran both do. TO the Humanist, the sanctity of human life and the enhancement of the human experience is the primary foundation for human rights. And I have been told repeatedly, that the term "Human rights" is a very naughty word in many religious circles.
So, since religions come and go, as do the gods or god of the day, humanity remains the constant, and our human experience in this life is real. Our awareness is real, and our happiness and sadness are real as well. That is tied into our brains, something that dies with us when we die. When we die, our beliefs die with us, even thesitic beliefs. It is just that many of us do not have time for imaginary beings, as we are fixing real problems instead.
It was once said
"A winner is part of the solution and a loser is part of the problem"
From my point of view, hatred, racism, war, intolerance are parts of the problem, and these are problems created by and influenced by certain religions. The solution is not in religion and prayer, but in getting out and being part of the solution, educating oneself and solving problems, one person at a time. That is being part of the solution.
Many great posts in this thread (thanks all) but this one I have to say is my favourite, thanks LargeKingCat.
What was interesting about this thread is how some posters instantly took a defensive stance to the original post with accusations of 'finger pointing' and 'no solutions' without actually offering any solutions themselves.
Your post reminded me that Humanists view all people equally, regardless of religion or belief and as such we expect others to see the world the same way. So it can be frustrating when people don't.
It is also frustrating when people have these strange ideas abut what atheism is.
I guess there are people out there who have never knowingly even met an atheist, so why would they understand?
I guess we just have to keep hammering home the points in threads like this.
I will be here all week, Cruithne. Without prolonging this line of discussion, I would point you to this particular resurrected post from another thread.
God is a special case . . . unlike your favorite foils . . . unicorns, leprechauns, Santa, or the FSM. It is not a case of special pleading . . . it is a case of BEING a special case.
None of those are my favourite foils Mystic. I can't recall ever using a single one in a discussion. That line of argument is a particular pet hate of mine.
And yes you are right, we will be here all week.. that argument probably best left for another thread.
But I never heard of god being referred to as a 'special case' before I must admit.
God is a special case . . . unlike your favorite foils . . . unicorns, leprechauns, Santa, or the FSM. It is not a case of special pleading
And yet your special pleading is the only basis you have for calling it a special case. You simply want the existence of god to be the default belief - in your special pleading - and to be a special case in this regard.
I will be here all week, Cruithne. Without prolonging this line of discussion, I would point you to this particular resurrected post from another thread.
God is a special case . . . unlike your favorite foils . . . unicorns, leprechauns, Santa, or the FSM. It is not a case of special pleading . . . it is a case of BEING a special case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne
None of those are my favourite foils Mystic. I can't recall ever using a single one in a discussion. That line of argument is a particular pet hate of mine.
Then we have something in common . . . I despise them also because they are ubiquitous favorites of atheists. Sorry I assumed you used them.
Sure, but that does not include simply not believing in a god. Atheism in and of itself is not illogical. It's not necessarily a comment on whether a god exists or whether evidence of a god exists. It is simply a lack of faith in either.
I agreed that Atheism is not illogical if it is "simply not believing in a god"...with no consideration or critical analysis of the matter. But, as I said, that would be a very small percentage...since the vast a majority have considered the issue.
Once one contemplates it enough to "comment on whether a god exists, or whether evidence of a god exists"...they have obviously gone beyond "simply not believing in a god".
If their analysis has led them to draw the conclusion/determination not to believe because they feel there hasn't been any evidence...then they have come to a conclusion/determination based on a premise (no evidence) that does not comport with a Pure Logic protocol.
From my experience (personal & the testimony of others) all but a very few Atheists base their view on the basis of "no evidence"...even presenting ridiculous comparisons to childish things life fairies, leprechauns, unicorns, garden gnomes, and other such things that are known to be imaginary...and that IS, in fact, illogical and nothing more than a preference. They could have just as well decided on the preference to believe in a god on that same "no evidence" premise.
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Without prolonging this line of discussion, I would point you to this particular resurrected post from another thread. 
