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If one reads the Qur'an in Arabic, you can not take it out of context.
Well, I don't know a single Arabic character and probably never will. However, what you say is very hard to believe.
No matter what language we speak, I think our brains work the same way. We understand simple ideas, and then put them together to form more complex thoughts.
If Arabic is structured so that you have to read a lot of words just to determine a single thought or concept, then it is probably a language that leads to a lot of misinterpretation, so evil people can use the Quran to justify evil actions.
Well, I don't know a single Arabic character and probably never will. However, what you say is very hard to believe.
No matter what language we speak, I think our brains work the same way. We understand simple ideas, and then put them together to form more complex thoughts.
If Arabic is structured so that you have to read a lot of words just to determine a single thought or concept, then it is probably a language that leads to a lot of misinterpretation, so evil people can use the Quran to justify evil actions.
Yes, it could be used to mislead a person, who has little knowledge of Islam
For the spoken words your concept is quite accurate all of our brains work basically the same when speaking.
There is quite a bit of difference among the language groups as to how the written languages are structured.
The Indo-European languages use a phonetic method in which the letters when pronounced mimic the sound of the word.
The older versions of Japanese and Chinese are actually glyphs, abstract pictures, the combinations of which give a concept that can be spoken. But this can get tricky as the symbol for "an unbridled horse" is also used for the abstract term nonconformist.
The Semitic languages use of writing is more like mnemonics visual reminders that trigger a memory of a word. You have to put a fair number of them together to actually understand what a particular set refers to.
Arabic had only become a written language shortly before the Qur'an was revealed. the primary method of transmission was oral and the main means of recording was memory.
The Qur'an is essentially intended to be heard, not read and when is read it should be read a minimum of 9 consecutive lines or the entire Surah if it is less than 9 lines.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
The first discourse was given very specifically to the people of Mecca, after they had broken the treaty by preventing Muslims from entering for the Hajj. Basicall it was notification to them that because they had violated the treaty the Muslims considered it void and it would no longer be honored.
Where do you get that from? There is no indication of that from the previous Surah (8). Any secular sources indicate that this relates to the Battle of Tabuk, which is not Mecca, (they are about 600 miles apart) but in northwest present day Saudi Arabia, and it was not against muslims, but the byzantines. Just as there is no secular and independent sources that talk about the resurrection events in christianity, there is little or no, including byzantine, record of this happening, although, yes, it is wildly accepted within muslim circles as real history.
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By the time the second discord was revealed war had broken out. The Second discord was revealed to the Muslims and laid out the groundwork for the rules of war. Such as non-combatants were not to be harmed and that if a person surrendered they were not to be harmed.
But why is does the god Allah confound the 'disbelievers'? There is NO difference to that then what the christian god did to Pharoh. You really didn't answer the question.
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What you are referring to is zakat (The obligatory charity) is not to be given to non-Muslims. We are permitted and even encourged to give charity to all people including to non-Muslims. But what we give to non-Muslims can not be counted as part of our obligatory charity. It does not subtract the amount we owe for Zakat.
Then how do you explain:
28:86 Thou hadst no hope that the Scripture would be inspired in thee; but it is a mercy from thy Lord, so never be a helper to the disbelievers.
It reinforces 9:18. Help Muslims, don't help non-Muslims.
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I have more trust in people than to believe that a good person can be corrupted by religion or any other factor. The person would have already been corrupt, but has discovered an excuse to justify his corruption.
It did not take religion to get Nazi Germany or Communist Russia under Stalin to mass murder people.
For continuity, I'm going to repeat the quote:
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
The salient point is the bolded. Who can refute that the name of a multitude of religions have been used and those religions called for endorsement of their god as a call to arms and war.
The comment about the Nazi's and Stalinist's is irrelevant in this case.
Where do you get that from? There is no indication of that from the previous Surah (8). Any secular sources indicate that this relates to the Battle of Tabuk, which is not Mecca, (they are about 600 miles apart) but in northwest present day Saudi Arabia, and it was not against muslims, but the byzantines. Just as there is no secular and independent sources that talk about the resurrection events in christianity, there is little or no, including byzantine, record of this happening, although, yes, it is wildly accepted within muslim circles as real history.
You are Correct. I made a major error as I was writing. Lapse of memory, Freudiean Slip or a bad case of Brain dead.
My thought was to write
Quote:
The first discourse was given very specifically because of the people of Mecca, after they had broken the treaty by preventing Muslims from entering for the Hajj. Basically it was notification to them that because they had violated the Muslims considered it void and it would no longer be honored.
But instead I wrote:
Quote:
The first discourse was given very specifically to the people of Mecca, after they had broken the treaty by preventing Muslims from entering for the Hajj. Basicall it was notification to them that because they had violated the treaty the Muslims considered it void and it would no longer be honored.
Thank you. I sincerely appreciate my errors being pointed out. I do not want to mislead anyone.
By the time the second discord was revealed war had broken out. The Second discord was revealed to the Muslims and laid out the groundwork for the rules of war. Such as non-combatants were not to be harmed and that if a person surrendered they were not to be harmed.
But why is does the god Allah confound the 'disbelievers'? There is NO difference to that then what the christian god did to Pharoh. You really didn't answer the question.
Do you recall what ayyat that is and what surah that is in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3
Quote:
What you are referring to is zakat (The obligatory charity) is not to be given to non-Muslims. We are permitted and even encourged to give charity to all people including to non-Muslims. But what we give to non-Muslims can not be counted as part of our obligatory charity. It does not subtract the amount we owe for Zakat.
Then how do you explain:
28:86 Thou hadst no hope that the Scripture would be inspired in thee; but it is a mercy from thy Lord, so never be a helper to the disbelievers.
It reinforces 9:18. Help Muslims, don't help non-Muslims.
Again it is all about keeping things in context.
Reading the ayyat in context:
Quote:
84. Whosoever brings good (Islamic Monotheism along with righteous deeds), he shall have the better thereof, and whosoever brings evil (polytheism along with evil deeds) then, those who do evil deeds will only be requited for what they used to do.
85. Verily, He Who has given you (O Muhammad ) the Qur'an (i.e. ordered you to act on its laws and to preach it to others) will surely bring you back to the Ma'ad (place of return, either to Makkah or to Paradise after your death, etc.). Say (O Muhammad ): "My Lord is Aware of him who brings guidance, and he who is in manifest error."
86. And you were not expecting that the Book (this Qur'an) would be sent down to you, but it is a mercy from your Lord. So never be a supporter of the disbelievers.
87. And let them not turn you (O Muhammad ) away from (preaching) the Ayat (revelations and verses) of Allah after they have been sent down to you, and invite (men) to (believe in) your Lord [i.e: in the Oneness (Tauhid) of Allah (1) Oneness of the Lordship of Allah; (2) Oneness of the worship of Allah; (3) Oneness of the Names and Qualities of Allah], and be not of Al-Mushrikun (those who associate partners with Allah, e.g. polytheists, pagans, idolaters, those who disbelieve in the Oneness of Allah and deny the Prophethood of Messenger Muhammad ).
88. And invoke not any other ilah (god) along with Allah, La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Everything will perish save His Face. His is the Decision, and to Him you (all) shall be returned.
It is commanding Muhammad not to help the disbelievers in their preaching or support what they believe
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
The salient point is the bolded. Who can refute that the name of a multitude of religions have been used and those religions called for endorsement of their god as a call to arms and war.
The comment about the Nazi's and Stalinist's is irrelevant in this case.
I agree that is a possibility. When that does happen most of them are probably illiterate and following what they were taught by evil people, not what they have personally learned from the Qur'an
To add in a bit. How often do you hear of an old man being a suicide bomber? How many teachers of suicide bombers ever become suicide bombers them self? I suspect the number would be quite low.
Looking at the biographies of suicide bombers they seem to be from 2 main groups. Non-Muslims that hated a government/cause or people deeply and converted to Islam for the reason of becoming a suicide bombers or Young, uneducated folks from impoverished regions.
I see a different scenario for Palestinians, There I see a very desperate and angry people that have given up hope and act out of an unimaginable level of anger.
I have many Muslim friends. They are like family. They are good people. They believe in God, and only want to do what God wants. Like with Christians, who are of the same nature. The problem is the Tares who are over all religions...they are not of God, nor do they teach Gods ways. Religions are not from God...that is why God will allow the nations to destroy all religion overnight. If religions were from God, nothing could harm them.
God sprang out of human imagination, and there he shall live until the last martyr has shed his last drop of blood....
So I hope you are a human and I hope you have the ability to image.
Now, leave God out of it and use your pure human imagination for a little bit.
Read the Quran, look at the structure of verses and see how are they formed, and then,,,, use your "human imagination" and ask yourself .... how can an unlettered man come up with such a material 1400 years ago?
A man who didn't go to school, didn't have a teacher, didn't know how to read, didn't know how to write.
Because many atheists are quite familiar with the absurdities contained in the bible, but only have a cursory knowledge of the koran.
It is as full of cruelty, contradictions and misogyny as the bible is.
Let's look at a couple of verses. The numbering system is similar to the bible, except the verses start at Book 1 (The Opening) and end up at 114 (Mankind). Thus the second book, "The Cow", all verses start with "2", and the 29th book, "The Spider" starts with "29".
As such, let's look at something that would be of concern to an atheist if that person were to live in a muslim country, and that is a person free to believe as they wish?
Well, it depends.
The benevolent verses in the koran state:
There is no compulsion in religion. 2:256
Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. 18:29
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. 109:6
BUT, that is contradicted by:
The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah. 9:29
Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. 9:123
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them, 4:89
Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5
Now if your comfortable that the muslim country is not an Islamic state (like mostly secular Turkey), you should be fine.
If, however, you are in almost any other muslim country in the middle east, and parts of Indonesia, you better keep your thoughts to yourself.
Muslim theology is as perverted in its non-acceptance of other philosophies as christian theology can be.
The Koran and Hadiths spew all kinds of hatred for all Christians, Jews, and every other "non believers". The books outline how Muhammad murdered them by the 1000's, and took the women and children into sex slavery. And, yet, he might not be quite as bad as Moses. Muhammad takes after Moses. Moses was his mentor.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,916,433 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll
So I hope you are a human and I hope you have the ability to image.
Now, leave God out of it and use your pure human imagination for a little bit.
Read the Quran, look at the structure of verses and see how are they formed, and then,,,, use your "human imagination" and ask yourself .... how can an unlettered man come up with such a material 1400 years ago?
A man who didn't go to school, didn't have a teacher, didn't know how to read, didn't know how to write.
As someone (can't remember who) pointed out, the Arab society in what is now Saudi Arabia passed on stories from generation to generation. Mohammed would have been very familiar with both the OT and the basics of the NT. It is not a huge jump in imagination to see him dictating another "new covenant" to a scribe/scribes.
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