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I see you cannot understand. But it is a fact that Abstinence is 100% effective. It has never failed. It's the only birth control with that track record.
Unfortunately that is true only on paper, because abstinence evidently is nothing like 100% applied, and thus is not in the least effective. Your position is rather like 'If everyone stayed indoors with antiseptic spaying the walls 24-7, that would be 100% effective healthcare and we wouldn't need expensive medical efforts'.
True -on paper - but impractical. It is better to treat the symptoms and educate how to avoid getting sick than try to stop sickness happening. Not only is it not going to happen, but I'm not sure we should even try.
Where did I go wrong? I am 52 and still waiting. You think I should have taught them to be trash and hump like wild dogs?
Where you are going wrong is in applying a (claimed) particular to the general. We have no idea what has happened in your family.
Secondly, you are being illogical. There are two extremes, both equally deserving of contempt - the Trash who teaches their kids to be trash and couple like wild dogs - as you so reasonably and elegantly put it, and the impractical dreamer who thinks that all the world's problems can be put right by saying 'Hey everyone - Just don't Do It'.
Somewhere in between is the massive excluded middle that is reasonable, sensible, practical and feasible, though not of course as effective as making them all eunuchs for Christ (as seems to have happened in your own family - Congratulations) and which seems to be unknown territory to your worldview.
In 2011, I and my wife had a car accident. Our car capsized into a 50m deep cliff and was written off. We survived the accident and I could still hear God saying, I saved you because I want you to tell them about my coming
Assuming we are to believe any of your story.... which frankly I struggle with given how fantastical it is..... then I would urge you for the safety of anyone you care about not to operate any vehicles..... much less with passangers in it with you..... while you are openly hearing voices in your head.
In the interim seek medical intervention and consultation, from a variety of doctors with qualifications from more than one source (as in second opinions are not much use if you go to two doctors who sat beside each other in college).
Hearing voices, especially after any life traumas such as the fantastical ones you have described, is rarely a good sign and the idea of such a one operating vehicles or heavy machinery is not a good image.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace Believer
The fact is, those who practice abstinence have a zero pregnancy rate and a zero STD rate as well. Proof that it works when followed correctly.
Actually that is not true at all. There are many virgins who have 100% practiced abstinence who are still infected with HIV and other kinds of STDs. Because not all STDs are passes solely through sex.
So get your facts right for a start.
But further the point being made is not about the efficacy of abstinence. But about the efficacy of teaching it and implementing it on a social level. And the facts are that areas with Abstinence only education fare worse statistically on STDs and unwanted pregnancies than those with education and availability of contraception and other protections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace Believer
I suppose you think we should teach "incarceration survival skills" along with teaching people not to steal. And of course, you want to teach along with not to murder the skill of "making the most of death row".
I think replying to what people actually say and espouse is A) more useful and B) at least honest. Why you have chosen to reply to positions not actually held or espoused or even MENTIONED by anyone on this thread is something known only to you at this moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace Believer
I was just using your logic and showing you how stupid it really is. Glad you can see it! No need to thank me, seeing a mind accept truth is thanks enough. Have a great day!
Putting words in other peoples mouths is not "using their logic". It is a dishonest tactic entirely designed to ignore what someone actually said by replying to something they did not.
Assuming we are to believe any of your story.... which frankly I struggle with given how fantastical it is..... then I would urge you for the safety of anyone you care about not to operate any vehicles..... much less with passangers in it with you..... while you are openly hearing voices in your head.
In the interim seek medical intervention and consultation, from a variety of doctors with qualifications from more than one source (as in second opinions are not much use if you go to two doctors who sat beside each other in college).
Hearing voices, especially after any life traumas such as the fantastical ones you have described, is rarely a good sign and the idea of such a one operating vehicles or heavy machinery is not a good image.
Actually that is not true at all. There are many virgins who have 100% practiced abstinence who are still infected with HIV and other kinds of STDs. Because not all STDs are passes solely through sex.
So get your facts right for a start.
But further the point being made is not about the efficacy of abstinence. But about the efficacy of teaching it and implementing it on a social level. And the facts are that areas with Abstinence only education fare worse statistically on STDs and unwanted pregnancies than those with education and availability of contraception and other protections.
I think replying to what people actually say and espouse is A) more useful and B) at least honest. Why you have chosen to reply to positions not actually held or espoused or even MENTIONED by anyone on this thread is something known only to you at this moment.
Putting words in other peoples mouths is not "using their logic". It is a dishonest tactic entirely designed to ignore what someone actually said by replying to something they did not.
Unfortunately that is true only on paper, because abstinence evidently is nothing like 100% applied, and thus is not in the least effective. Your position is rather like 'If everyone stayed indoors with antiseptic spaying the walls 24-7, that would be 100% effective healthcare and we wouldn't need expensive medical efforts'.
True -on paper - but impractical. It is better to treat the symptoms and educate how to avoid getting sick than try to stop sickness happening. Not only is it not going to happen, but I'm not sure we should even try.
Of course it's 100% effective. No one practicing abstinence has ever gotten pregnant or contracted an STD from sex. It's impossible. I realize that people are going to sin and have pre an extra-marital sex. That is just a sin problem. I am only saying that abstinence is effective 100% of the time. That's just a fact. It's kind of like the sun provides light. Why argue with a simple fact. I have made no comment as to the effectiveness of teaching it. I just want to see if those participating the discussion will accept facts so I know if their debate is a logic based one or just emotional. So far all I see is emotional debate.
Now this is very telling! I show the lack of logic in someones logic and give examples of how that faulty logic plays out and several decided to attack the messenger. I understand that means I nailed it on the head and you have no defense. I do tend to be direct and forward in my approach. I am amazed that none of you had any on-topic response to what I said.
For the record, I am not mad in the least as someone suggested. I don't even get upset at the personal shots some of you took at me. I understand why you do that so I pay it no mind. I do not get into personal attacks, rather I will deal with your claim, logic and theories alone. Never personal. I actually think I read in the TOS and stickies that this is how you are expected to post on this forum. So if you have nothing to say and go personal I will take it for what it is and means and move on. Hope some of you can discuss from reason, facts and logic though.
You might be reading too much of your own personal bias into things. I don't think anyone here is "out to get you." We are all definitely arguing against your lacking message not against you as a messenger. I, myself, am trying to help you be a better messenger by pointing out the flaws I perceive in your responses and inferences. Sorry if you don't see that I understand that I have no idea what kind of person you are, but all I have to go to try to understand your arguments is your posts.
What do you think you nailed in the head and say..."won" over us? What are we supposed to defend against? All I remember you writing was "glad you agree with me" even though no one in the relevant posts did. I merely suggested you blew a gasket (not because you are in my opinion inferior) but because the reply post seemed unattached to reality, like some kind of competitive denial. You were reading into Areq's post things I simply couldn't find. You said something about his "logic" being wrong because you could build an easy straw-man out of it... or something else like that which also seemed disconnected to me. I'm sorry if you feel you will no longer support your own position publicly in this thread. I will recheck on the old posts and wait to hear back from you.
Here are the posts:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace Believer
The fact is, those who practice abstinence have a zero pregnancy rate and a zero STD rate as well. Proof that it works when followed correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Duh, that's like saying "If you want to avoid falling down, don't fall."
Thanks for the advice, but the truth is, we fall ... and MOST people are going to have sex, and the majority of those who do will have it before they marry.
Now, I don't know if Yeshua's school taught abstinence ONLY, but rare is the abstinence program that says, "You shouldn't have sex before marriage, but if you do, here are some condoms."
MOST Christians who push abstinence refuse to do so with the knowledge that sex before marriage is likely anyway. They think advising about birth control is like telling them that abstinence is optional, that giving them the means to protect themselves only encourages premarital sex.
Of course that's like saying wearing your seatbelt encourages you to get into car accidents or having a smoke detector encourages you to set fires in your house. Abstinence ONLY programs are failures. Period. Look up the statistics for yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace Believer
I suppose you think we should teach "incarceration survival skills" along with teaching people not to steal. And of course, you want to teach along with not to murder the skill of "making the most of death row".
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
"I suppose you..oh, so you think this or that...so i suppose you..." This sort of smearing is not new. In fact, we would love to address the problems of killing, stealing, abuse of the vulnerable, war, poverty and ignorance. We just think it isn't done by saying 'Be perfect, just as your father is perfect'. That does not work. I would rather apply solutions that have some helpful effect .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace Believer
I was just using your logic and showing you how stupid it really is. Glad you can see it! No need to thank me, seeing a mind accept truth is thanks enough. Have a great day!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceist
No you weren't. Using a petulant strawman statement is not 'logic'.
Looks like it backfired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
Wow. Four whole posts on cd and you think you've straightened someone out, by gum.
I'm impressed.
That takes sanctimonious hutzpah to a whole new level. Well done!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth
I think a gasket might have been blown there... perhaps an over-inflated ego was popped... It just seems like a very strange response to me. Not sure how to distinguish what you just posted as a responce from those two inferences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Like they said - it looked like taking the logic, plastering some stuff about survival training on Death row (We leave it to the Christians to try to grab another convert before they are put definitively beyond prosetylization) onto it, and apparently pretending that debunked our whole approach. An absurd caricature does not actually make what it caricatures absurd.
...No, I don't see any of the things you suggest, Grace Believer. You might be coloring your vision because of the loyalties you've chosen. I myself don't have a preference, just a clearer vision. No one is going to do as you say because you say it or because you scare them (or confuse them with an unclear and jumpy argument), they need a proper education that tailors to their actual condition. Condoms and birth control and a proper education protects from accidents that are common to the failure that is abstinence-only eduction. People should be educated about peer-pressure, biology of sex, and protection... teaching abstinence-only would be a catastrophe for over-eaters, drug abusers, car drivers that don't want to get into accidents, people who fear their house becoming engulfed in flames, etc. There needs to be protections as well as suggestions.
Shirina, I think this is one of those cases where "contradicting facts make them more partisan anyway." How facts backfire
We can only hope that some readers will be able to check the facts and the logic, and choose the right thing: a proper education about human sexuality, psychology, and policy effectiveness.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 07-28-2014 at 11:10 AM..
Of course it's 100% effective. No one practicing abstinence has ever gotten pregnant or contracted an STD from sex. It's impossible. I realize that people are going to sin and have pre an extra-marital sex. That is just a sin problem. I am only saying that abstinence is effective 100% of the time. That's just a fact. It's kind of like the sun provides light. Why argue with a simple fact. I have made no comment as to the effectiveness of teaching it. I just want to see if those participating the discussion will accept facts so I know if their debate is a logic based one or just emotional. So far all I see is emotional debate.
It amazes me sometimes when people underestimate our intelligence to such a colossal degree.
We're all pretty old hands at this, the salty dogs of debate. We all knew where your argument was going, so we decided to move the discussion along instead of answering obvious questions as if we're being cross examined on the witness stand.
There would be no reason to emphasize the point of abstinence being 100% effective unless your follow up point would include that information. You should be glad that I'm actually assuming you're going to make a well-structured argument instead of just writing disjointed facts all over the place.
At any rate, it is highly unlikely your follow-up would be something like, "Yes, abstinence is 100% effective if everyone practiced it - but we know that isn't going to happen realistically, so we should also teach them about safe sex, too."
That would be a really bizarre way of entering the debate. Plus ... certain posts are big give-aways to what your argument is going to be. For instane, "humping like wild dogs" comes to mind.
Sorry if we decided to kick the discussion up the road a bit to get on with the relevant details, but that's what we did.
Of course it's 100% effective. No one practicing abstinence has ever gotten pregnant or contracted an STD from sex. It's impossible. I realize that people are going to sin and have pre an extra-marital sex. That is just a sin problem. I am only saying that abstinence is effective 100% of the time. That's just a fact. It's kind of like the sun provides light. Why argue with a simple fact. I have made no comment as to the effectiveness of teaching it. I just want to see if those participating the discussion will accept facts so I know if their debate is a logic based one or just emotional. So far all I see is emotional debate.
I would tend to agree that abstinence is effective IF applied. The problem is that it seems impractical to expect it be applied. So your argument works on paper, but is of little effective use in practice. That is my position on dealing with the world's problems, which is where this discussion arose - you said it was illogical and I am saying that it is logical as it is a rational approach to problems; and the idea of abstinence, though it is 100% effective on paper, (or as an abstract concept) it is (we believe) ineffective in practice, so it is illogical to suggest it as a solution.
Shirina, I think this is one of those cases where "contradicting facts make them more partisan anyway." How facts backfire
We can only hope that some readers will be able to check the facts and the logic, and choose the right thing: a proper education about human sexuality, psychology, and policy effectiveness.
Yes. This is the problem with putting democracy into the hands of the people. They appear to be incapable of coming to rational decision about who to vote for.
But the idea of democracy is that, good or bad, the people have the right to decide.
The problem is that people do not think rationally as logical and critical thinking is no part of the curriculum. The world thinks in terms of personal preferences and propping them up. The 'The is the conclusion - what evidence can we find to support it' is universal - not just the flawed thinking of creationism. What is so bad about Creationism is that this thinking is applied to science matters, where critical thinking is basic.
At the moment those with the courage of their convictions (which is just stubborn closed mindedness) are considered admirable, while those who try to be more reasonable are regarded as weak and vacillating.
But I do believe that critical and logical thinking could (and should) be introduced into the curriculum. This is perhaps an impractical ideal, but it is one that I have to hope will come, in time.
Arq, I feel that abstinence-only is as applicable as communism, neither take human and individual psychology too deeply into account. The problem with people not thinking rationally is that governments are always led by a group of people who control the currency and/or army, regardless of government, the problem of human beings needing proper education and relearning always remains; not many parents want to teach their children to be critical and deal with the risks of rebellion... the same probably applies to governments and religions.
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You think I should have taught them to be trash and hump like wild dogs? 
