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When it comes to killing people, God could give Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or any of them a run for their money.
Of course according to Viz and the gang, God killed folks because they "deserved it". I'm sure if you asked Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot, they would say the people they killed "deserved it" as well.
Technically "God" would be an "atheist" too, for believing there probably isn't higher powers than him. "God" probably doesn't believe in "SuperGod," who is beyond the supernatural (since supernatural beings can't understand it).
<natural vs. supernatural = a false dichotomy>
That was the point of objective morals being from Karma instead of from the subjective desires of personal beings.
<solipsism would be true for any personal being; if they can think, they can be wrong, especially since doubt is a type of thought, special pleading exemptions to this would be applicable to anyone.>
There are three basic Abrahamic religions that most of us obliged to acknowledge. They are all derived from Abraham in the bible. They are as follows:
1) Judaism
2) Islam
3) Christianity
Currently the Jews are killing the Palestinians in Gaza. Of course, if they didn't, then HAMAS Muslims would most certainly be killing them. ISIS, the Sunni Muslims, are now killing Shia Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Christians in the Congo are killing Muslims and Muslims are killing them too.
All of these religions are rooted in evil and based upon falsehoods. They're the cause of so much suffering, pain, death, and all sorts of social calamities.
I think we would all be much better off without most religions at all. Let's just go for science, technology, and transhumanism, instead...
People should not be in ignorance as to the failure of religions including those denominations that call themselves Christian. The apostle Peter wrote the following in 2 Peter 2:1,2:
"However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively."
Centuries of Christian tradition which obscured true Christianity, with the passing of the last of the apostles, has led to teachings about the nature of God influenced by Greek philosophy, Christian involvement with politics and government and by extension military and social conflicts, as well as pagan teaching about what happens at death...if we serve God we go to heaven, if not, then eternal torment awaits.
Yes "The Way" as early Christianity was called has certainly been spoken of abusively due to the conduct of It's leaders and many of it's adherents.
What is true Christianity and by extension true Christians?
Jesus did not leave us in ignorance...
"I am giving you a new commandment that you love one another just as I loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:34,35)
Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit (Matthew 7:17)
It doesn't help that Satan is the ruler of this world...1 John 5:19.
What happens when people carefully examine the Bible and practice what it teaches, hatred? bigotry, violence?
"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD Jehovah from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Divine Names King James Bible Micah 4:1-3).
At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. (Acts 10:34,35)
Wait! Are you implying that everyone who is religious is a Christian? Or that there are no other religions?
I've never suggested anything close to that.
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Or do you not have a problem condemning every other religion, you just want to carve out an exception for yours? This has nothign to do about Biblicla support or what the "real, true faith" might happen to be. It is undeniable that religion, in particular Christianity, was responsible for propagating millenia of antisemitism. This is not to let other religions off the hook, I am not interesting in discussing Christianity alone. The power to shape culture, to promote peace and prosperity, or hatred and violence exists in all religions.
To be honest...no. I don't have a problem condemning every other religion. Jesus himself did that. He said he was the ONLY way to Heaven.
But the question was if Hitler was a Christian. There is no evidence in his life to support the notion that he believed that Jesus was his Lord.
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Whether you think a religion is true or false is irrelevant. It is a religion plain and simple. I understand that you believe that everyone who disagrees with you on doctrine is not a Christian, but I simply don't believe you have the authority to make that call, pastor or not.
The fact is the Catholic Church both formally and informally sanctioned and promoted antisemitism. Protestants like Martin Luther did as well. Even going back to the earliest Church fathers there was hostility toward the Jews. The Spanish Inquisition was specifically targeted at Jews, by the church.
OK? Does the Catholic church make doctrine for all of Christianity? Is the action of a pope authoritarian on all Christians?
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Again, this may not accord with your doctrine, but it does not and cannot remove the role of religion in these atrocities. The issue is not if you or I believe that God sanctioned these acts, but the beliefs of the perpetators. Clearly Hitler at a minimum leveraged these historic attitudes within Christianity to gain support for his horrific massacre. Whether Hitler's own antisemitism is due to the thread of antisemitism instilled in European cultures by Christianity is much more debatable, but it clearly gave him leverage to allow otherwise good, God fearing Germans to justify their actions.
-NoCapo
Give it up. Hitler would have been an evil nut job with or without the Christian/Jew feud that's been going on for 2000 years.
To be honest...no. I don't have a problem condemning every other religion. Jesus himself did that. He said he was the ONLY way to Heaven.
But the question was if Hitler was a Christian. There is no evidence in his life to support the notion that he believed that Jesus was his Lord.
OK? Does the Catholic church make doctrine for all of Christianity? Is the action of a pope authoritarian on all Christians?
Give it up. Hitler would have been an evil nut job with or without the Christian/Jew feud that's been going on for 2000 years.
As has been stated over and over (ad nauseam) in the forums, Hitler said he was a Christian. He was baptized a Catholic. While it is true that these things in no way indicate that he was devout or a practitioner of the faith, the historical evidence is unmistakable that he was a Christian (meaning that he was a member of a Christian church at some time in his life). I don't know if anybody can speak authoritatively about what true religious beliefs he held. In addition, his words indicate a belief in God and Christ. Now, his actions may not conform to what anybody walking the earth considers Christian behavior, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a Christian.
But the question was if Hitler was a Christian. There is no evidence in his life to support the notion that he believed that Jesus was his Lord.
Except that question is, as I already said, irrelevant. The question is did Hitler use religion as a tool to control, motivate and justify the actions of Nazi Germany? The answer to that is a resounding yes.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
OK? Does the Catholic church make doctrine for all of Christianity? Is the action of a pope authoritarian on all Christians?
Of course not. But you don't get to pretend that Catholicism is not a religion, simply because it is not precisely your religion. The fact is religion is a powerful tool to justify behavior. It isn't that religion makes people bad, but it provides powerful justification for harm. It open up decent people to manipulation. For example, we know that the Crusades were not really motivated by religion, but by politic, greed, and a desire for power. But for the lay people, not the knights, not the nobles, not the bishops, but the peasantry these were holy wars. They left homes and families to "defend the faith" firmly believing they were doing God's will.
This is my point, that religion, in all its forms, is a powerful tool for the powerful to manipulate the masses.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Give it up. Hitler would have been an evil nut job with or without the Christian/Jew feud that's been going on for 2000 years.
Quite possibly. I'm pretty sure there was something wrong upstairs. But it is a bit naive to ignore nearly 2000 years of antisemitism that pervaded the whole of Europe, and was explicitly tied to Christianity, as being a factor in his unreasoning hatred of the Jews.
Again, my point has nothing to do with whether a given religion is "true" or even if I think it is "good' or not. Our history makes the point that religion is hugely powerful, and just as easily as it can create a rather cohesive culture or be a motivation for positive acts, it can motivate large groups of people to do really horrible things. I rather suspect that people wil go much further in the name of a god than they will in the name of a philosophy, or a worldview, or a political party. If you look at history it appears that my conclusion is not that farfetched, because almost every ruler, regardless of nation or culture, uses religion to support their own agenda. Why? Because it is effective.
Except that question is, as I already said, irrelevant. The question is did Hitler use religion as a tool to control, motivate and justify the actions of Nazi Germany? The answer to that is a resounding yes.
But religion did not CAUSE Hitler to do what he did, nor did it enable him. He would have done what he did because he was able to give the masses what they needed -- jobs, and food for their tables.
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Of course not. But you don't get to pretend that Catholicism is not a religion, simply because it is not precisely your religion. The fact is religion is a powerful tool to justify behavior. It isn't that religion makes people bad, but it provides powerful justification for harm. It open up decent people to manipulation. For example, we know that the Crusades were not really motivated by religion, but by politic, greed, and a desire for power. But for the lay people, not the knights, not the nobles, not the bishops, but the peasantry these were holy wars. They left homes and families to "defend the faith" firmly believing they were doing God's will.
This is my point, that religion, in all its forms, is a powerful tool for the powerful to manipulate the masses.
You might as well condemn labor unions. There were a lot of people that simply wanted a job. He came along and offered people a solution in a time of need. And millions of people were happy to have food for their tables and bread to put in their mouths.
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Quite possibly. I'm pretty sure there was something wrong upstairs. But it is a bit naive to ignore nearly 2000 years of antisemitism that pervaded the whole of Europe, and was explicitly tied to Christianity, as being a factor in his unreasoning hatred of the Jews.
Again -- that is a feud that started with Jews horribly mistreating Christians 2000 years ago. Yes, Christians have done wrong. I don't deny that. But Jews have been hated since long before Jesus walked the Earth.
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Again, my point has nothing to do with whether a given religion is "true" or even if I think it is "good' or not. Our history makes the point that religion is hugely powerful, and just as easily as it can create a rather cohesive culture or be a motivation for positive acts, it can motivate large groups of people to do really horrible things. I rather suspect that people wil go much further in the name of a god than they will in the name of a philosophy, or a worldview, or a political party. If you look at history it appears that my conclusion is not that farfetched, because almost every ruler, regardless of nation or culture, uses religion to support their own agenda. Why? Because it is effective.
-NoCapo
I disagree. Historically, there have been some pretty horrible things done to man in the name of secularism. Do you know what they do to Christians in North Korea? Do you realize what the penalty is for having a Bible in your home? They literally line people up on the street, lay them down and drive over a line of them with a steamroller. That's some pretty horrible stuff. And it's not motivated by religion -- it's motivated by a need for power by a political group.
How about the USA? We butcher our young while they're still in the mother's womb because secular science tells us that they are not human -- but are instead just a thing, or a mass of tissue.
Yes--with the absence of God, people do some pretty horrifying things to each other.
As has been stated over and over (ad nauseam) in the forums, Hitler said he was a Christian. He was baptized a Catholic. While it is true that these things in no way indicate that he was devout or a practitioner of the faith, the historical evidence is unmistakable that he was a Christian (meaning that he was a member of a Christian church at some time in his life). I don't know if anybody can speak authoritatively about what true religious beliefs he held. In addition, his words indicate a belief in God and Christ. Now, his actions may not conform to what anybody walking the earth considers Christian behavior, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a Christian.
Sorry....I can call myself a cow if I want....but that doesn't mean I am one. Christians don't commit genocide.
Technically "God" would be an "atheist" too, for believing there probably isn't higher powers than him. "God" probably doesn't believe in "SuperGod," who is beyond the supernatural (since supernatural beings can't understand it).
He would only be an atheist if he didn't believe he was a God.
And believe me, he knows considering how vain and egotistical he is.
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