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The point being made, gabfest, is that the defense of "once saved always saved" really is the only reason for citing the "No true Scotsman" as a fallacy in criticism of "Christianity."
The point being made, gabfest, is that the defense of "once saved always saved" really is the only reason for citing the "No true Scotsman" as a fallacy in criticism of "Christianity."
The point being made, gabfest, is that the defense of some "once saved always saved" really is the only reason for citing the "No true Scotsman" as a fallacy in criticism of "Christianity."
Absolute statements usually invalidate/void most arguments.
The point being made, gabfest, is that the defense of some "once saved always saved" really is the only reason for citing the "No true Scotsman" as a fallacy in criticism of "Christianity."
Absolute statements usually invalidate/void most arguments.
Can you rephrase that? At best that sentence is ambiguous, but I am not even sure I can parse it...
I will disagree with nate, in that I think the NTS fallacy rears its head in other places, but it is more arguable because the real issue is changing definitions of Christian over time. The clearest cut example to me is the whole "they went out from us, because they were not of us.", but I think it can apply in other cases as well.
OK, so I've taken a little bit of action on the matter. Probably nothing will come from it but it never hurts to try. So, I have written to the Pope, a Vatican representative and to a contemporary Catholic Theologian. Here is my letter:
Dear Sir:
I am a devout Catholic living in the United States of America. I am writing this e-mail to offer a suggestion for potential Church scholarship with the purpose of Ecumenical discussion among all Christians. I hope this e-mail will reach church representatives interested in scholarship.
I discuss theology with others of different Faiths and no Faith. In a recent discussion was the question of a more recently constructed fallacy termed, "the No True Scotsman Fallacy." I am not so much concerned as to whether it qualifies as a legitimate Fallacy in the more traditional sense of Logical Fallacies. However, what was interesting about the discussion was the general agreement between those who have Faith, those who don't have Faith, and especially those who have lost their Faith is that typically the Fallacy reflects the sentiment of some Christians who disown other Christians, within their own denomination or of other denominations, on the basis they are not True Christians. The most unsettling examples were former Christians who felt disowned by their denomination in the vein of the True Christian question. The ultimate conclusion being that there appears to be so many theological differences among different Christian Faiths that there can never be any agreement of what constitutes a True Christian.
Now, I have been blessed in life to be born during the time of Pope John Paul and I can honestly write the happiest day of my life is when I, by chance, had an interaction with Pope John Paul in Rome. The blessed Pope John Paul was feet away from me, turned around, looked me in the eye and gave me thumbs up upon which my heart was filled with so much joy, excitement and happiness that I never experienced before and have not experienced since then. I am grateful Pope Francis is continuing with the Ecumenical process of Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict. In this vein I am writing you to offer suggestion for future Church scholarship.
My suggestion is that the Church conduct a series of meetings with Christian leaders and representatives of all denominations from the biggest to the smallest, every Christian representative and leader from all over the world would be invited. The purpose of the meetings would be twofold. The primary purpose is to delineate what we all can agree on i.e. the very fundamentals of Christianity. Now, keep in mind, it's not about changing anyone's mind or belief but rather just delineating some of the basics we all agree upon. I may be idealistic but in conversations with other Christians while we might disagree upon Biblical Interpretations there are still very basic things upon which we all hold true especially when it comes to moral issues. Even if what we can all universally agree on to be true is very small it would still make a huge difference among all Christians to see regardless of what denomination we are, we are still Christians. The second purpose is for each church to delineate differences in theology. This will be more challenging. However, I envision it working out with Church leaders and representatives writing their own essays in whatever manner they choose to delineate their fundamental principles in theology. At the end of the process would be a book for anyone with Faith, struggling with Faith, or without Faith to refer to, to better understand what we all agree upon as Christians and what distinguishes different Christian denominations by theology. Now, my primary concern is differences in theology and not so much practices--rituals of the mass or what have you.
The purpose of all this would be for those without Faith, those struggling with Faith, and those with strong Faith to have a book they can refer to, first to see what all Christians have in common but more importantly see which Churches would best represent their theological concerns and address their theological problems. In a sense, it would make it easier for them to pick the Faith where they will get the best theological experience to help them on their spiritual path. If on their spiritual path, if they find a conflict in their own theological views this would also help in finding other Churches that can address it. Again, I am a devout Catholic and I will always be a devout Catholic because I know Catholic theology specifically addresses my spiritual concerns. However, I also recognize that other people are different and have different spiritual needs at different points in their life so it would be helpful to have one book with essays from Christians of all denominations delineating their theology so that no one loses Faith in their spiritual paths if different needs arise.
Again, in my experience with former Christians who have left whatever denomination and become atheists there is this sense that their Church was the only way, their only experience of Christianity, their only experience of theology and when they feel that Church lets them down theologically they see no better option then to lose all Faith. I want this so those struggling with Faith can see there are many options and there are options that are right for them. I also want this so those without Faith can see what at the chore a Christian is, what differentiates Christian denominations, and potentially find Faith as well in whatever denomination.
God Bless. I pray this reaches someone with interest in scholarship.
OK, so I've taken a little bit of action on the matter. Probably nothing will come from it but it never hurts to try. So, I have written to the Pope, a Vatican representative and to a contemporary Catholic Theologian. Here is my letter:
It is a nice idea, but one that gets tried every couple generations. You can go all the way back to Nicea and see that even then it devolves into deciding who is a "true" Christian and who isn't. Ultimately the problem is that there is no shared authority. Even Scriptural canons differ, and some hold to Scripture and tradition, some are Sola Scriptura, and some hold the authority of personal revelation, the still small voice, or inner light.
That is a bit of a separate discussion from the No True Scotsman, as this is not necessarily changing the definition of a "Scotsman" mid-argument, it is just arguing about the meaning in the first place. Ultimately, nowthat I find myself on the outside, I tend to accept someone's word. If they view themselves as a Christian or a follower of Christ, I will also view them that way. Not to be flippant, but for me it is like transgendered individuals, I figure if a person presents as a woman, is introduced to me as a woman, then what may or may not be between their legs is irrelevant, I will treat them as a woman. Likewise, if someone self identifies as a Christian, I don't feel it is my place to quibble with their specific doctrine and tell them they aren't.
The point being made, gabfest, is that the defense of some "once saved always saved" really is the only reason for citing the "No true Scotsman" as a fallacy in criticism of "Christianity."
Absolute statements usually invalidate/void most arguments.
Which seems a bit otiose, since the OSAS doctrine is considered (by us) invalid anyway. The point about doctrine is that it should apply all across the board. If you are accepted as being saved (lets say, bearing the letter to the Pope in mind - within any particular community of Christians), then you are supposed to be saved and doctrinally, cannot thereafter deconvert.
The facts of deconversion undermined the doctrine and so the excuse of appearing to be saved but in reality not is what saves the doctrine. Thus the NTS fallacy is used.
Going back to the original argument, it is of course doctrinally required that they couldn't really have been saved and thus the argument is not a fallacy.
Accordingly, I had to argue that the No Real Christian argument doesn't hold water and the argument that they couldn't have been Christian fails and thus the argument is a fallacy - they were absolutely as Christian as any others at the time and yet they deconverted.
This the OSAS doctrine collapses. The only way to save it then is reject logic in favour of faith: not an uncommon thing for Christian apologists to do.
Speaking of fallacies, here's one: altruism and evolution are compatible.
Hello gabfest.
That represents a rather sharp turn in the conversation. One might think that you are trying to change the subject.
Thanks.
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