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I believe that God does not approve of divisions in His church. The apostle Paul admonished the brethren in 1 Cor. 1:10 "That ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you."
Jesus told His Apostles that "He that hears you hears Me, and he that hears Me hears Him that sent me." Since Paul repeatedly referred to himself as being an Apostle, called by Jesus Christ, How do we justify getting so far from the words of Paul?
Best wishes to all who desire to know and DO the will of our heavenly Father,
Bob Prince
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 09-03-2014 at 11:59 AM..
Reason: clarification
[shrug] Christians not only justify their schisms and divisions, they revel in them. In my childhood hometown, the local Baptist church split back in the 1960s based on what color the new sanctuary carpeting was to be.
Which is not to pick on Christians. Christians, like it or not, are human, and humans often invest ego in the oddest things and pick the strangest battles. Of course, this gives the lie to the notion that Christian morality is transformative and redemptive and elevates Christians to a higher moral or at least functional plane. They are represented in prison populations, divorce statistics, legal fines, etc., at least in proportion to their numbers in society. The fact is that Christians participate in exactly the same morality as everyone else -- societal morality -- and run afoul of it just as much. And fight over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin just as much.
I believe that God does not approve of divisions in His church. The apostle Paul admonished the brethren in 1 Cor. 1:10 "That ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you."
Jesus told His Apostles that "He that hears you hears Me, and he that hears Me hears Him that sent me." Since Paul repeatedly referred to himself as being an Apostle, called by Jesus Christ, How do we justify getting so far from the words of Paul?
Best wishes to all who desire to know and DO the will of our heavenly Father,
Bob Prince
No....I don't think God does approve of them. The first 4 chapters of 1 Corinthians are filled with his condemnation of people splitting because they choose to follow the teachings of men instead of God.
We do need to realize though, that what we call denominations today are not necessarily always because of doctrinal disputes. I pastor a small independent non-denominational church. According to some sources, they would call my church a separate denomination. We have no doctrines that are unique to us....I would be perfectly comfortable with pastoring a church in a lot of other denominations or independent churches. In fact, I was a finalist for a position in an E Free church, a Baptist church, and another independent. I was offered a position in another independent church, as well.
I believe that our God, in His omniscience, knows the heart of anyone on the earth who has a desire to do His will,and,in His omnipotence, knows how to get the person to a place where he or she will be able to choose to serve Christ and His Father.
Who's Church is it? If it is God's Church declare it. Why do Catholics pray to the virgin Mary,and Angels, and patron Saints. I have spoke with Catholics about this. Most do not even know what a Saint is. Why do Baptist believe the only way to get to heaven is to ritually be baptized in water? When John himself said Jesus will Baptize with Fire.
I have seen the ignorance turn int a yoke that is not of God.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matt 15;9
Confusion has a name.
[shrug] Christians not only justify their schisms and divisions, they revel in them. In my childhood hometown, the local Baptist church split back in the 1960s based on what color the new sanctuary carpeting was to be.
Which is not to pick on Christians. Christians, like it or not, are human, and humans often invest ego in the oddest things and pick the strangest battles. Of course, this gives the lie to the notion that Christian morality is transformative and redemptive and elevates Christians to a higher moral or at least functional plane. Theyare represented in prison populations, divorce statistics, legal fines, etc., at least in proportion to their numbers in society. The fact is that Christians participate in exactly the same morality as everyone else -- societal morality -- and run afoul of it just as much. And fight over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin just as much.
Do you have statistics on this or are you stating something off the top of your head in the underline ? How do you know Christians participate in the same morality as everyone else, I find that hard to believe.. I will agree Christians are human that is pretty obvious.
Do you have statistics on this or are you stating something off the top of your head in the underline ? How do you know Christians participate in the same morality as everyone else, I find that hard to believe.. I will agree Christians are human that is pretty obvious.
My statement about "the same morality" is based on my position that there is only one morality that actually applies and is enforced, which arises out of societal consensus about certain things, and it is not derivative from some superior morality that comes down from on high. As I've said before, it's society that issues marriage licenses and jail sentences and fines -- not god. And there is no empirical basis to say that (dis)pleasing god results in better or worse outcomes. I've known incredibly lovely, fine, moral, kind, decent people who have had terrible misfortune, and I've known total a__holes who bathe in luck on a daily basis.
As for the stats, we've discussed them many times, and the studies have been cited many times in various threads. To put it another way, can you or any other Christian substantiate from a study done by a reputable polling organization that shows that the percentage of people in, say, prison as felons is disproportionately low for Christians? And can you do it without resorting to arguments such as, "well, he's a felon, therefore he's obviously not a Christian?" Also, what do those studies say about the representation of atheists compared to the percentage of the general population that atheists make up?
Naturally all these figures are a bit dependent on definition of terms and whether they are self-applied labels or determined in some other way. I'm simply saying that as an evangelical I just assumed that the prisons aren't full of Christians. 'Taint so. If it is, show me some evidence that doesn't come from Focus on the Family or NewsMax.
How do you know Christians participate in the same morality as everyone else, I find that hard to believe.. I will agree Christians are human that is pretty obvious.
LOL! And Jeffbase warned ME about being prideful.
*whistles appreciatively*
Sorry, perry, but if Christians are humans, they aren't practicing some "special" morality that is better than morality practiced by everyone else. That's just part of the religious conceit; it is an effort to fulfill the third tier of Maslow's Hierarchy - Love and Belonging.
It is simply a desire to belong to something, and you can't belong to something if there aren't people who don't belong.
That's all fine and dandy when we're talking about club memberships, but this exclusiveness takes on a special kind of elitism and snobbery when it is applied to morality.
What is that famous verse that people like to quote? Something about "knowing them by their fruits"?
I don't know about you, but that verse never resonated with me as meaning, "You will know them by the church they attend."
You do not operate on a higher plane of morality simply because you're a Christian. You might operate on a higher plane of morality because you're a good person - but your religion doesn't enter into the equation as anything other than a minor variable that rarely changes the outcome. Good people will do good things regardless of which god they believe in - or if they believe in one at all.
Sorry, perry, but if Christians are humans, they aren't practicing some "special" morality that is better than morality practiced by everyone else. That's just part of the religious conceit; it is an effort to fulfill the third tier of Maslow's Hierarchy - Love and Belonging.
It is simply a desire to belong to something, and you can't belong to something if there aren't people who don't belong.
That's all fine and dandy when we're talking about club memberships, but this exclusiveness takes on a special kind of elitism and snobbery when it is applied to morality.
What is that famous verse that people like to quote? Something about "knowing them by their fruits"?
I don't know about you, but that verse never resonated with me as meaning, "You will know them by the church they attend."
You do not operate on a higher plane of morality simply because you're a Christian. You might operate on a higher plane of morality because you're a good person - but your religion doesn't enter into the equation as anything other than a minor variable that rarely changes the outcome. Good people will do good things regardless of which god they believe in - or if they believe in one at all.
It's so hard for me to look at these words and not see this huge heart.
In Heaven, there are people that came from all types of denominations. All that mattered is whether you accepted Christ as your savior. That's all it takes to be saved. People are arguing and debating over nothing. The thief on the cross was in Paradise with Jesus that day for accepting him. Take God out of your box. Atheist have made it to Heaven by the hair on their chin for simply saying the name of Jesus at their last breathe. His grace and mercy is so much bigger than we think. Denomination means nothing to him.
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