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I consider myself a devout Christian... and accept the teachings of Jesus and how those teachings provide for my salvation. There is no judgement or condemnation in your belief logic, and it is not the place of any Christian or teaching of Jesus Christ to suggest you are condemned by what you believe... but I would remind you, that beliefs or philosophies are a journey, not a destination. What you believe today will be different tomorrow, you may feel sheltered by your intellect, but that will change when you are on your death bed. Life does not exist on a plane as in left or right, up or down.... but rather it is a circle. As we travel, we observe the same God, the same world, but from different vantage points. The view changes, but the subject.... is the same. How we process this "view" well determine what we believe. We all "see" the same thing, but not all of us have the same amount of faith.
"Coat tail Christian's' believe in the values or better yet employ Legacey of Jesus. They may in fact embrace Jesus's teachings, but do not accept the "deity" of Christ. (Christ simply means the; "annointed one"). Our faith is like a muscle... use it or lose it.
I'm sure your journey is still in progress... do not stop and think "is that all there is"? keep seeking! never become "lukewarm"!
Read Rev 3:14-22
OK, I have my "Good News Bible" version and I've turned to Revelations, chapter 3, versus 14-22, unfortunately, this version of the Bible is not annotated in the traditional manner and I will need to acquire a more traditional version of the Bible, not a problem, one of my friends in my apartment building is a born-again Christian and and has many Bible versions, I'll swap my version for one of her versions of the Bible. I will notate that "The angel of the Church in Laodicea writes that this is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness who is the origin of all that God has created". I'll need to get that more traditional version of the Bible.
My travel of the road of belief and religion went from an intense demanding mother that "instilled" religion into my skull at the point of physical punishment, to a questioning of the tenets of religion (Christianity), to my shift toward empirical evidence debunking the existence of faith based beliefs, to my disdain of organized religion, to my present day beliefs as an Agnostic or Deist. Total road to travel, about 55 years from childhood to the present day.
A Christian is a person that believes that Jesus Christ is the Savior of humankind and was sent to the Earth by God (The Trinity: God, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost (Spirit), one God, three distinct Entities) to save humankind from the destructive forces of sin and to make way for the Second coming of Christ which will lead all faithful followers to to Joys of Heaven. One can not be "saved" from the fires of Hell unless that person accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Savior and is washed in the blood of the Lamb (Lamb of God>Jesus Christ). The "Handbook" of the Christian Religion is the Bible.
An Agnostic/Deist acknowledges the existence of a Supreme Being (Universal Force) but disavows the existence of Christ as Divine Being that was sent to Earth to lead humankind to eternal salvation. Christ is viewed as an historical figure, not as the Son of God and the Second Person of the Trinity.
A Christian is someone who believes JC is the son of god and a deity. All the rest is theological differences over which much hatred and blood has been shed. A Holy Ghost is not necessary. Christians will make all sorts of tortortured arguments about the details, but anyone who believes in the deity of JC qualifies as some sort of Christian, no matter what all the other Christians who disagree say. There are hundreds of theologies with the belief in the deity of JC at its core along with a whole lot of other details that vary considerably.
An agnostic is on the fence about deity - doesn't really believe in god but doesn't deny the possibility of one either as it can be neither proven nor disproven in any sort of valid logic or evidence. Agnostics do NOT acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being (Universal Force), only the possibility there may be one that is unprovable and undetectable. Christianity is just one of many beliefs that may or may not have any validity. An atheist does not believe in any deity at all - no proof = doesn't exist.
You tip to the side of belief and so you are not a real agnostic. You may qualify as a Deist as Deists do acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being (Universal Force).
I don't know on what you base the stated absolutest belief in the historical JC. There is not one shred of actual evidence that such a person ever existed outside of the New Testament bible which was written hundreds of years after the purported "events" and the repeated statement that he did. Deists usually are aware of this but still believe there is some sort of god out there.
But then lots of lies have gotten legs in this world by repeated and loud statements. If you tell a lie often enough and vociferously, people come to believe it. This is the basis of all brain washing techniques.
Oh it's a conversion alright, especially if you're the "convertee"!
A conversion is a heart matter.. which no one can force on you or me.
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Of course not! But Jesus, as the founder of the Christian religion, had no control over the generations of sheep (followers) that promulgated Christianity after the death of Jesus in 27 CE.
If Jesus has no "control" over me, I am not a Christian. That might seem like a pretty hard statement, but IMO that is true. So, since you said that Jesus would not have condoned such behaviour, we can't blame persecution and bloodshed on Christians, rather the spirit of antichrist working in people's lives.
Luke 11: 23 He that is not with me is against me
Our fruits will ALWAYS show what we really are. What we call ourself is completely irrelevant.
Sorry, there are bad and evil Christians as well as any other religion or philosophy. No one really gets a pass on their own behavior.
On the contrary, everyone will be judged on their own behavior. How could it be otherwise? Do you think that if there was a God, He would let me by just because I called myself a Christian, yet did not follow Christ?
Matthew 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Last edited by cg81; 01-04-2008 at 10:43 AM..
Reason: verse added
An agnostic is on the fence about deity - doesn't really believe in god but doesn't deny the possibility of one either as it can be neither proven nor disproven in any sort of valid logic or evidence. Agnostics do NOT acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being (Universal Force), only the possibility there may be one that is unprovable and undetectable. Christianity is just one of many beliefs that may or may not have any validity. An atheist does not believe in any deity at all - no proof = doesn't exist.
Do you believe that Thomas Henry Huxley's definition of an Agnostic to be in conformity to your definition of a an Agnostic? I am an Agnostic/Deist and I do acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being (Universal Force), but I reject the premise of organized religions and the Divine Nature that is attached to God, the Trinity and the tenets of the Christian religion. I consider myself be be an Agnostic or Deist, take you pick.
The complete verse reads "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters" (NKJV Study Bible)
Would you consider this verse to be be in the same intent as President Bush's statement (paraphrased) If you not with us on the terrorist issue, then your against us. So, does the Bible verse state unequivocally, that if a person is not with Christ, then by default, they are against Christ?
Do you believe that Thomas Henry Huxley's definition of an Agnostic to be in conformity to your definition of a an Agnostic? I am an Agnostic/Deist and I do acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being (Universal Force), but I reject the premise of organized religions and the Divine Nature that is attached to God, the Trinity and the tenets of the Christian religion. I consider myself be be an Agnostic or Deist, take you pick.
So long as you affirmatively believe in a deity, you are not agnostic. Agnostics do not believe in a deity but allow the possibility that there could be such a thing. That is consistent with Huxley's definition of being in a state of not knowing. You keep stating that you believe in a deity (call it whatever you will). That in itself is a state of believing you know there is a god or supreme being (same thing). You do not need to adhere to any sort of organized religion to be a believer. Hindus do not believe in the divinity of the Judeo-Christian-Islam gods either but they most certainly are religious and believe in gods. What sort of god you believe in is immaterial to the definition.
I'm a Christian who is also an Agnostic! That my seem like a dichotomy of philosophies but that is how I view my moral standing. I was raised as a Roman Catholic but now disavow any beliefs of the Catholic Church or any other Christian denomination.
When I'm asked my religious preference, I respond "Christian/Agnostic"! The looks I get are like the price of gas just hit $5.00 a gallon! When I complete any kind of paperwork that requests religious preference, I always notate "Christian/Agnostic". When advised that I must pick one preference over the other, I respond that both preferences apply to me; that does create heated discussions in certain instances!
So, How do I resolve this paradox of faith and morality within myself? Your input is highly appreciated! Thanks! Steve
This is very curious since I've never heard of this before. Can you elaborate what exactly makes you "Christian-Agnostic"? Is it the contradiction within you? In one way you DO believe in God and Christ as Saviour and on another you don't even know if God exists? Help me out here...
So long as you affirmatively believe in a deity, you are not agnostic. Agnostics do not believe in a deity but allow the possibility that there could be such a thing. That is consistent with Huxley's definition of being in a state of not knowing. You keep stating that you believe in a deity (call it whatever you will). That in itself is a state of believing you know there is a god or supreme being (same thing). You do not need to adhere to any sort of organized religion to be a believer. Hindus do not believe in the divinity of the Judeo-Christian-Islam gods either but they most certainly are religious and believe in gods. What sort of god you believe in is immaterial to the definition.
IMO, you're splitting hairs between the terms "believe" and "allow". If you believe in a statement or position, then you must allow for that statement or position. Since I believe in a Supreme Being, then I must allow for the possibility that a Supreme Being does exist.
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Hindus do not believe in the divinity of the Judeo-Christian-Islam gods either but they most certainly are religious and believe in gods.
Hindus and other poly-deist religions, like the ancient Druids, Egyptians, and Greeks did not profess a belief in a singe Deity, that only came about with the founding of the Christian religion by a man/prophet named Jesus Christ.
Whatever your preferred name of a single Deity, there is certainly a difference between a Supreme Being (Universal Force) and a hierarchy of gods and goddesses in poly-deist religions, in the generic meaning of "religions". The operative term here is single Deity.
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How we process this "view" well determine what we believe. We all "see" the same thing, but not all of us have the same amount of faith. 
Tesaje
