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Old 03-08-2019, 06:51 AM
 
8,674 posts, read 2,160,591 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
In the Dragons of Eden, Carl Sagan takes on the Adam and Eve story and it's a really good read.

I don't have the book at hand, so I'm thin on details of his comparison, but here's the basic gist.

The apple isn't a fruit, it's the knowledge that comes from Eve having the discussion with the serpent (the devil) about Good and Evil. Then, she offers that information to Adam, who entertains the idea although he's been forbidden from considering the Concept of Evil. In many other places in the Bible, the woman is able to offer the man something and he's so overpowered by his desire for her that he doesn't care it's forbidden.

I certainly think we can all come up with examples in our own lives where we've seen that.

The ability to consider abstract thoughts, Good and Evil, is something that's very likely uniquely human, and, Sagan theorizes, is the cause of our brains being so very large compared to other mammals. Abstract ideas are stored in a part of the brain that grew dramatically, quickly, in our evolutionary trek. It is our huge heads, Sagan believes, caused by our ability to consider very abstract ideas, that causes women such pain in childbirth. Other mammals don't have that kind of pain - rather, discomfort.

Sagan is specific about the part of the brain, and brain growth, etc. and the relationship to childbirth pain.

The allegory is stunning, and worth a read.

But. How in the world did the early writers of the Christian Bible have any idea what part of the brain houses the ability to discern good and evil?

There is also something in there about the evolutionary trek of reptiles. That "serpents" - dragon lizard creatures, were the beginning of the legless snakes. They evolved from serpents WITH legs. Now how would the writers of the Bible have known that, that the serpent lost its legs and then was forced to crawl on its belly and eat dust, with the legs being gone?
Dinosaurs had more in common with modern day birds rather than reptiles though.
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Old 03-08-2019, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
6,146 posts, read 5,845,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post

The ability to consider abstract thoughts, Good and Evil, is something that's very likely uniquely human,
As more research is done it is apparent that many mammals have an innate sense of "right and wrong". Not sure if that is exactly the same as "good and evil" relative to the fact that animals probably don't contemplate the existence of invisible higher beings. Research has even indicated that even some birds have an innate sense of "fairness".
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Old 03-08-2019, 12:07 PM
 
8,643 posts, read 3,370,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
As more research is done it is apparent that many mammals have an innate sense of "right and wrong". Not sure if that is exactly the same as "good and evil" relative to the fact that animals probably don't contemplate the existence of invisible higher beings. Research has even indicated that even some birds have an innate sense of "fairness".
Yes, right and wrong.

I'm a firm believer in the intelligence of animals, and am more and more amazed as videos become more common, how much evidence there is that animals are sentient.

There are some amazing stories and videos out there to back that up.

But the concept of good and evil, and a higher power, I believe is uniquely human.

Or anyway, on this planet.
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Old 03-08-2019, 12:10 PM
 
3,724 posts, read 2,445,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
Yes, right and wrong.

I'm a firm believer in the intelligence of animals, and am more and more amazed as videos become more common, how much evidence there is that animals are sentient.

There are some amazing stories and videos out there to back that up.

But the concept of good and evil, and a higher power, I believe is uniquely human.

Or anyway, on this planet.
Certainly the concepts good and evil are uniquely human.
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Old 03-08-2019, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Florida
19,130 posts, read 19,288,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
Certainly the concepts good and evil are uniquely human.
Is that 'right /wrong",'good/evil" or only advantageous?
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Old 03-08-2019, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,873 posts, read 13,782,323 times
Reputation: 15011
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
The serpent in the Garden was a Pink Headed Reed Snake.
No, there was no actual snake.

The great lot of you seem to be unable to grasp the fact that Hebrew cosmogony is just a plagiarized abridged version of the original Sumerian cosmogony.

A god, called Ea in Sumerian and Enki in Akkadian, and his son Ningishiddza were known as serpent gods, because their symbol was a cross intertwined with two snakes, what is known as the caduceus, and is the symbol for the medical profession today.

In Ugarit, which is what Hebrew language and culture is based upon, Ea/Enki was known as Yam and Ningishiddza as Lothan, and both were serpent sea gods.

In Hebrew, logically then, the word for sea is yam, as in Yam Suf -- the Sea of Reeds (just as the Hebrew word for death is mot stemming from the god of death called Mot).

Since Ea/Enki, Ningishiddza and Ninti (a goddess) created Humans, they wanted to give knowledge to Humans, but Enlil, Enki's half-brother, hated Humans and didn't want them to have any knowledge.

The two quarreled, and Enki went behind Enlil's back and gave knowledge to Humans anyway.

That, is the basis of the story of the Garden of Eden.

You all would know that, if you actually understood what you read.

Here's a lesson in critical thinking and textual analysis:

Genesis 2:10 Now a river flowed in Eden to water the orchard, and there it divided into four headstreams. 2:11 The name of the first was Pishon; it ran through the entire land of Havilah, where there was gold. 2:12 (The gold of that land was pure; pearls and lapis lazuli were also there). 2:13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it runs through the entire land of Khush. 2:14 The name of the third river is Tigris; it runs to the east in Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.

Who is the writer's target audience?

Did you read it? Because it's painfully obvious.

The write does not describe the Euphrates River, because his target audience lives on the banks of the Euphrates River, and they know exactly where it is. There's no need to describe it in any detail, because the target audience sees it every day.

The write mentions the Tigris to the east. Most of his target audience are farmers and herders, so they don't travel much, but they know it, because merchants, traders and soldiers do travel in that area and would know where it is.

The writer provides more detail for the Karun River, which flows through the Zagros Mountains in Khuzestan Province, Iran.

And, yes, that's Iran, not Sudan in Africa.

What you see in the Hebrew texts is an orthographic error.

Hebrew has two letters, "C" and "C" with-a-dot-in-the-middle that represent two distinct vowel sounds, "k" and "kh".

Kush is in Africa, but Khush was the land and people who lived between the Tigris and Karun Rivers. They're known as Cassites in modern parlance.

The orthographic error may have been unintentional, simply the result of transcribing texts, or intentional. Jeremiah and his scribe Baruch, the two men who created the Hebrew texts as you know them, would have no knowledge of the Khusites, because the Khusites had been dead and gone for 1,000 years at the time the Hebrew texts were assembled, but they would have known about the Kush in Africa.

The writer gives great detail about the Kuwait River, because it's unlikely his target audience knew where it was.

The Kuwait River originated in the Hijazz Mountains in western Saudi Arabia and flowed east across the Saudi Peninsula, which was at the time a tropical rain forest, to merge with the Euphrates, Tigris and Karun Rivers.

The Kuwait River died about 8,000 years ago, so that tells you roughly when it was written.

The Kuwait River was re-discovered around 1993-1994 during Space Shuttle missions using ground-penetrating radar to map the Earth (and discover secret underground installations of US adversaries).

The same missions uncovered the remnants of a river delta in the Arabian Sea a few kilometers south of the mouth of the Persian Gulf.

Had you lived 12,000 years ago, it all would have looked like this:





All four rivers formed the Eden River, which flowed over a spectacular water-fall about 100-120 feet high, then through the Persian Valley into the Arabian Sea.

The actual Garden of Eden was located there in the Persian Valley.

There were probably 100s of villages and several dozen towns ("cities") there, but when the Glacial Period ended and the climate changed, the rising sea levels would have forced people to abandon them.

Given that the principal building material was mud-baked brick, it's unlikely anything survived.

They did use timber, and specifically cedar from Lebanon, Syria and Turkey, but much of it would have decomposed, although it's possible there still might be some remnants.

Over 10,000 years, several meters of silt has covered everything, but even so, if you core-drilled it, you might find artifacts like jewelry or weapons, and lots of pottery shards.

Anyway, that's where it all was, the E.din as it's rendered in Sumerian, and don't forget the Sumerians were dead and gone for 800 to 1,000 years before the Hebrew language separated from the Ugarit language, and there was no actual serpent, but there was a serpent god.
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serpent in the Garden-eden.jpg  
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Old 03-09-2019, 06:16 AM
 
Location: US
27,190 posts, read 14,532,800 times
Reputation: 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
No, there was no actual snake.

The great lot of you seem to be unable to grasp the fact that Hebrew cosmogony is just a plagiarized abridged version of the original Sumerian cosmogony.

A god, called Ea in Sumerian and Enki in Akkadian, and his son Ningishiddza were known as serpent gods, because their symbol was a cross intertwined with two snakes, what is known as the caduceus, and is the symbol for the medical profession today.

In Ugarit, which is what Hebrew language and culture is based upon, Ea/Enki was known as Yam and Ningishiddza as Lothan, and both were serpent sea gods.

In Hebrew, logically then, the word for sea is yam, as in Yam Suf -- the Sea of Reeds (just as the Hebrew word for death is mot stemming from the god of death called Mot).

Since Ea/Enki, Ningishiddza and Ninti (a goddess) created Humans, they wanted to give knowledge to Humans, but Enlil, Enki's half-brother, hated Humans and didn't want them to have any knowledge.

The two quarreled, and Enki went behind Enlil's back and gave knowledge to Humans anyway.

That, is the basis of the story of the Garden of Eden.

You all would know that, if you actually understood what you read.

Here's a lesson in critical thinking and textual analysis:

Genesis 2:10 Now a river flowed in Eden to water the orchard, and there it divided into four headstreams. 2:11 The name of the first was Pishon; it ran through the entire land of Havilah, where there was gold. 2:12 (The gold of that land was pure; pearls and lapis lazuli were also there). 2:13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it runs through the entire land of Khush. 2:14 The name of the third river is Tigris; it runs to the east in Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.

Who is the writer's target audience?

Did you read it? Because it's painfully obvious.

The write does not describe the Euphrates River, because his target audience lives on the banks of the Euphrates River, and they know exactly where it is. There's no need to describe it in any detail, because the target audience sees it every day.

The write mentions the Tigris to the east. Most of his target audience are farmers and herders, so they don't travel much, but they know it, because merchants, traders and soldiers do travel in that area and would know where it is.

The writer provides more detail for the Karun River, which flows through the Zagros Mountains in Khuzestan Province, Iran.

And, yes, that's Iran, not Sudan in Africa.

What you see in the Hebrew texts is an orthographic error.

Hebrew has two letters, "C" and "C" with-a-dot-in-the-middle that represent two distinct vowel sounds, "k" and "kh".

Kush is in Africa, but Khush was the land and people who lived between the Tigris and Karun Rivers. They're known as Cassites in modern parlance.

The orthographic error may have been unintentional, simply the result of transcribing texts, or intentional. Jeremiah and his scribe Baruch, the two men who created the Hebrew texts as you know them, would have no knowledge of the Khusites, because the Khusites had been dead and gone for 1,000 years at the time the Hebrew texts were assembled, but they would have known about the Kush in Africa.

The writer gives great detail about the Kuwait River, because it's unlikely his target audience knew where it was.

The Kuwait River originated in the Hijazz Mountains in western Saudi Arabia and flowed east across the Saudi Peninsula, which was at the time a tropical rain forest, to merge with the Euphrates, Tigris and Karun Rivers.

The Kuwait River died about 8,000 years ago, so that tells you roughly when it was written.

The Kuwait River was re-discovered around 1993-1994 during Space Shuttle missions using ground-penetrating radar to map the Earth (and discover secret underground installations of US adversaries).

The same missions uncovered the remnants of a river delta in the Arabian Sea a few kilometers south of the mouth of the Persian Gulf.

Had you lived 12,000 years ago, it all would have looked like this:





All four rivers formed the Eden River, which flowed over a spectacular water-fall about 100-120 feet high, then through the Persian Valley into the Arabian Sea.

The actual Garden of Eden was located there in the Persian Valley.

There were probably 100s of villages and several dozen towns ("cities") there, but when the Glacial Period ended and the climate changed, the rising sea levels would have forced people to abandon them.

Given that the principal building material was mud-baked brick, it's unlikely anything survived.

They did use timber, and specifically cedar from Lebanon, Syria and Turkey, but much of it would have decomposed, although it's possible there still might be some remnants.

Over 10,000 years, several meters of silt has covered everything, but even so, if you core-drilled it, you might find artifacts like jewelry or weapons, and lots of pottery shards.

Anyway, that's where it all was, the E.din as it's rendered in Sumerian, and don't forget the Sumerians were dead and gone for 800 to 1,000 years before the Hebrew language separated from the Ugarit language, and there was no actual serpent, but there was a serpent god.
So, where do you get all this from?...
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Old Yesterday, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
53,625 posts, read 52,661,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
The serpent in the Garden of Eden, Noah's harbinger, etc. are said by some to be attributed to Enki and Enlil...Yin/Yang. Interestingly, some refer to Lucifer as 'The Light Bearer'.
That's what "Lucifer" means.
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Old Yesterday, 08:12 PM
 
10,646 posts, read 10,911,549 times
Reputation: 3245
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
The serpent in the Garden was a Pink Headed Reed Snake.

Thank you, granpa. I would have gone to my grave baffled, bewildered and bemused had I not known that salient fact.
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Old Yesterday, 08:18 PM
 
10,646 posts, read 10,911,549 times
Reputation: 3245
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
So why did Adam eat it?

Well, you know those reptilian creatures were pretty crafty. They could have fooled me into eating the apple. Interesting that it didn't make a meal out of Adam and Eve after they ate.
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