Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"In the end, the point Armstrong feels most adamant about is that by blaming religion for violence, we are deliberately and disastrously blinding ourselves to the real, animating issues in the Middle East and Africa that are directly affecting us in the guise of terrorism and—it feels inevitable—further ground war."
"In the end, the point Armstrong feels most adamant about is that by blaming religion for violence, we are deliberately and disastrously blinding ourselves to the real, animating issues in the Middle East and Africa that are directly affecting us in the guise of terrorism and—it feels inevitable—further ground war."
I'm sorry....who again is Karen Armstrong?
In any event, she's right about this point. I sincerely doubt that Islam has turned a Mother Teresa type into a rabid ISIS hatemonger. It does give an outlet to already violent people that are looking for an excuse. But it does not MAKE the violent person. In the same way, Secular Atheistic Communism doesn't necessarily CAUSE one to become a violent evil dictator...but we have seen some pretty bad dictator types use communism.
In any event, she's right about this point. I sincerely doubt that Islam has turned a Mother Teresa type into a rabid ISIS hatemonger. It does give an outlet to already violent people that are looking for an excuse. But it does not MAKE the violent person. In the same way, Secular Atheistic Communism doesn't necessarily CAUSE one to become a violent evil dictator...but we have seen some pretty bad dictator types use communism.
Read up on her, but the interesting thing is, her views (when you get to know more about her, despite her apparent rescuing of religion's reputation here), would not endear with her many Christians in relation to core doctrines and beliefs. In fact, had she been living in Christian Europe 500 years ago, she would have definitely seen how violent folks could get when you question or ridicule their religious beliefs. She might have had a different response then.
On another note, oddly enough I do agree with her on some of her views about Christianity.
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 10-30-2014 at 01:17 PM..
"To speak to an audience not schooled in religious philosophy is the very height (or is it depths?) of pedantic sophistry. Religion is created by humankind as a palliative to force away the fear of ignorance -- whether it is worshiping the rain in hopes of water to drink or worshiping an ill-defined deity in the hopes of avoiding the consequences of their own actions after death. When others disagree with a personal definition of "god", the person gets angry and scared and lashes out. Creating a fantasy that is attacked by others leads to either insanity or violence -- or both. To claim religion does not do this is chicanery at its worse. Religion, a creation of humankind, is the very vessel of hatred and separation complexes. If that is not the formula for violence, then nothing else is that better defines it."
"In the end, the point Armstrong feels most adamant about is that by blaming religion for violence, we are deliberately and disastrously blinding ourselves to the real, animating issues in the Middle East and Africa that are directly affecting us in the guise of terrorism and—it feels inevitable—further ground war."
I think she makes an important point in highlighting that the people asking and answering these questions most publicly are really amateurs. There are volumes and volumes of research in the psychology and sociology of religion and terrorism and violence that show a variety of factors that can converge to catalyze violence of different types. Religion is often not even near the top. Suicide terrorism, for instance, is primarily motivated by foreign occupation, desperation, and the belief that it works. Half of all suicide terrorist attacks in the last 30 years were secular in nature, and the group that developed the suicide belt and sent hundreds of male and female suicide bombers to their deaths (the Tamil Tigers) were anti-religionists who preached a Lenin/Marxist ideology. Unfortunately, this research is rarely, if ever, engaged at all by the Harris' and the Dawkins' and the Mahers of the world. Instead they just draw specious conclusions from anecdotal evidence and their own assumptions.
Some good research to look at regarding this topic:
Ami Pedahzur (ed.), Root Causes of Suicide Terrorism.
Arie Kruglanski, Shira Fishman, "The Psychology of Terrorism: 'Syndrome' Versus 'Tool' Perspectives," Terrorism and Political Violence 18 (2006): 193–215.
Arie Kruglanski, Shira Fishman, "Psychological Factors in Terrorism and Counterterrorism: Individual, Group, and Organizational Levels of Analysis," Social Issues and Policy Review 3.1 (2009) 1–44.
John R. Hall, "Religion and Violence," in Handbook of the Sociology of Religion, 359–81.
L. Weinberg, Ami Pedahzur, Religious Fundamentalism and Political Extremism.
Armstrong wrote a decent book a while ago called A History of God. For its incredibly broad scope, it manages to distill a lot of the current thinking on the development of Jewish, Christian, and Islamic conceptualizations of deity down into a popular and accessible presentation.
I think she makes an important point in highlighting that the people asking and answering these questions most publicly are really amateurs. There are volumes and volumes of research in the psychology and sociology of religion and terrorism and violence that show a variety of factors that can converge to catalyze violence of different types. Religion is often not even near the top. Suicide terrorism, for instance, is primarily motivated by foreign occupation, desperation, and the belief that it works.
This being said, Daniel, why are so many of these people often adherents of some religion? What is it in religion that provides them the desire, excuse, precedent, passion to carry out these acts? Is there something inherent in religion that caters to the twisted minds of the world?
As for the Stalins and other non-religious mass murderers, were they not following the monotheistic motif with them setting themselves up as the all powerful deity, requiring singular allegiance to them or "the state?" It might have been "religion" in the classic sense we think of it, but isn't it basically the same thing minus the deity in the sky?
This being said, Daniel, why are so many of these people often adherents of some religion? What is it in religion that provides them the desire, excuse, precedent, passion to carry out these acts? Is there something inherent in religion that caters to the twisted minds of the world?
As for the Stalins and other non-religious mass murderers, were they not following the monotheistic motif with them setting themselves up as the all powerful deity, requiring singular allegiance to them or "the state?" It might have been "religion" in the classic sense we think of it, but isn't it basically the same thing minus the deity in the sky?
I think religion is just an overwhelming force in human psychology and community models in general. What is in religion that provides them such things is a sense of community and established protocol. Inherent in religion are self-preservation and replication tactics and a sense that it must appeal to even the worst to become a truly universal religion.
Yes, Stalin and other anti-religious communists were reacting to the power and psychology of religion minus the acceptance of hardship from the poorest. They wanted to replace religion with something that actually "helped" the communist party base. Yet, they could not establish proper representative democratic-republics, because of their fear that personality worship and strict unity are central (motif's that they failed to shake off from the monotheistic cultures they came from). The Fascist Communism they set up were atheist state religions, since they saw that secularism failed to control the greed of coreligionists in the churches and pagodas (or at least their support of private property rights).
This is an interesting discussion about religion and violence, for anyone interested.
"All religion has the potential to create violence."
"Anytime, I argue, that someone thinks that he or she has God in their pocket, that they know exactly what God wants for them and for everybody else you have--I think you can argue historically--you have a disaster waiting to happen. People can justify doing anything when they are convinced they're carrying out exactly what God wants. We have to always be in all traditions far more humble in our approach to religious understanding, religious truths, and recognize that none of us possess the mind of God; that we are all in a process of growing and learning and changing. And so however powerful our religious perspective and experiences may be, that has to always be tempered by the fact that we are conditioned human beings in a process of learning but certainly not possessing the mind of God."
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,917,771 times
Reputation: 4561
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg
Yes, I've heard that academic research seems to support the model that the God character in people's minds usually supports their views (even when changed or subliminally influenced) and influence from this manufactured legitimacy strenghen people's already held convictions. “Those who can make you believe absurdity can make you commit atrocity.” ~ Voltaire
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 10-30-2014 at 07:24 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
