Moses Myth: And You Thought Historizing Jesus Was Tough! (gospel, contradiction, Jews)

[Daniel O. McClellan]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

Also, apart from Philistia not even being there in Ramesses' time so the Hebrews would not need to shirt around it to enter Canaan from the East, Egypt, after the battle of Kadesh, secured control of Canaan up to the Syrian border.

I would point out here that the battle of Kadesh didn't actually change anything. Egypt had long controlled that land, and it was just trying to push back against Hittite incursion. Kadesh was basically a draw, and no land changed hands, but the Pharaoh came home and told stories of him taking on the entire enemy army all by himself and driving them off.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan

I would point out here that the battle of Kadesh didn't actually change anything. Egypt had long controlled that land, and it was just trying to push back against Hittite incursion. Kadesh was basically a draw, and no land changed hands, but the Pharaoh came home and told stories of him taking on the entire enemy army all by himself and driving them off.

I agree. Hatti was a challenge to the Egyptian empire and it wasn't a case of Rameses II expanding the empire but reasserting Egyptian authority. The battle of Kadesh might not have been the stunning victory the Pharoah portrayed it as, but (as I have said as regards the battle of Quatre bras, which Napoleon and some of the French military apologists both claim he won) they had to withdraw and give up any ground taken. The others held their ground and that, arguably, is a win. The subsequent treaty suggests it was a pretty even one, but the Hittites did not get what they wanted - expansion.

In terms of the Exodus, this means that Egypt was overseeing Canaan and Sinai all the time Exodus supposes they had got away from Pharoah's authority and could overrun Canaan just as they liked.

[Aristotle's Child]

From the Jerusalem Post, there is this:

"The whole subject of the Exodus is embarrassing to archaeologists. The Exodus is so fundamental to us and our Jewish sources that it is embarrassing that there is no evidence outside of the Bible to support it. So we prefer not to talk about it, and hate to be asked about it.

"For the account in the Torah is the basis of our people’s creation, it is the basis of our existence and it is the basis of our important Passover festival and the whole Haggada that we recite on the first evening of this festival of freedom. So that makes archaeologists reluctant to have to tell our brethren and ourselves that there is nothing in Egyptian records to support it. Nothing on the slavery of the Israelites, nothing on the plagues that persuaded Pharaoh to let them go, nothing on the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea, nothing.

"Nothing at all. There are three Pharaohs who said they got rid of the hated foreigners, but nothing to say who the foreigners were, and no Pharaoh is named as having persecuted foreign slaves or suffered unspeakable plagues."

From Wikipedia:

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts is a 2001 book about the archaeology of Israel and its relationship to the origins of the Hebrew Bible. The authors are Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University, and Neil Asher Silberman, a contributing editor toArchaeology Magazine.

“…...an archaeological analysis of the patriarchal, conquest, judges, and United Monarchy narratives [shows] that while there is no compelling archaeological evidence for any of them, there is clear archaeological evidence that places the stories themselves in a late 7th-century BCE context."

'Ze'ev Herzog, professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, wrote a cover story for Ha'aretz in 1999 in which he reached similar conclusions following the same methodology; Herzog noted also that some of these findings have been accepted by the majority of biblical scholars and archaeologists for years and even decades, even though they have only recently begun to make a dent in the awareness of the general public. "

Comment: In short, it is now recognized that the first seven books of the Old Testament are folklore written about 800 BC and redacted in about 500 BC. The Hebrews were not in Egypt. There was no exodus. The story is the founding myth of Israel.

Is it credible thatHebrews were in Egypt for 400 years, reached a number of about 2 million, spent 40 years in the desert, but there are no Egyptian or Hebrew records, and equally important not a trace of archaeological evidence, not even a piece of broken pottery? The first Egyptian mention of Hebrews was in about 1220 BC and it places the Hebrew people in Canaan, not Egypt.

[TRANSPONDER]

Thank you. I can see that the failure of the Exodus as credible history would be a profound embarrassment to Judaism, since so much of the religion and social customs are based on what happened then.

Yet I am surprised at occasionally reading of an Israeli archaeologists who bites the bullet and says: 'This is the way the evidence points, like it or not'. Or something along those lines.

I found the miracle tales hard to swallow, but always assumed there was something true in it. I never doubted that the tribe of Israel marched into Canaan and set about dispossessing the original inhabitants of their land.

I need hardly rehearse that it might not be a bad thing (apart from embarrassment about a chunk of the supposed Jewish history being false) for Jews to realize that they grew up on site, as entitled to be there as Moab, Ammon and Edom, just as Rome grew up on site and set about absorbing all the other tribes.

[truth_teller]

Korah
...His enormous wealth made him arrogant. Korah treated the poor with contempt and told them that their poverty was due to their lack of intelligence.
He believed that what he owned was due to his own cleverness and business ability.
Moses reminded Korah to pay alms (zakat) on his wealth, a portion of which was rightfully due to the poor.
Alms are compulsory upon all the believers. Korah was annoyed by this advice and told Moses ....Story of Prophet Musa/Moses and Haroon/Aaron (pbut)

[TRANSPONDER]

Where does that come from? It surely isn't in the Bible. What is the source?

[truth_teller]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

Where does that come from? It surely isn't in the Bible. What is the source?

The source is Allah
to the angel
to the messenger of Allah Muhammad peace and blessing of Allah be upon him
to the Holy Quran

Sura #28

76 Verily, Qarun (Korah) was of Musa's (Moses) people, but he behaved arrogantly towards them. And We gave him of the treasures, that of which the keys would have been a burden to a body of strong men. Remember when his people said to him: "Do not exult (with riches, being ungrateful to Allah). Verily Allah likes not those who exult (with riches, being ungrateful to Allah).

77 "But seek, with that (wealth) which Allah has bestowed on you, the home of the Hereafter, and forget not your portion of lawful enjoyment in this world; and do good as Allah has been good to you, and seek not mischief in the land. Verily, Allah likes not the Mufsidun (those who commit great crimes and sins, oppressors, tyrants, mischief-makers, corrupters)."

78 He said: "This has been given to me only because of the knowledge I possess." Did he not know that Allah had destroyed before him generations, men who were stronger than him in might and greater in the amount (of riches) they had collected? But the Mujrimun (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners) will not be questioned of their sins (because Allah knows them well, so they will be punished without being called to account).

79 So he went forth before his people in his pomp. Those who were desirous of the life of the world, said: "Ah, would that we had the like of what Qarun (Korah) has been given! Verily he is the owner of a great fortune."

80 But those who had been given (religious) knowledge said: "Woe to you! The Reward of Allah (in the Hereafter) is better for those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and this none shall attain except those who are As-Sabirun (the patient in following the truth)."

81 So We caused the earth to swallow him and his dwelling place. Then he had no group or party to help him against Allah, nor was he one of those who could save themselves.

82 And those who had desired (for a position like) his position the day before, began to say: "Know you not that it is Allah Who enlarges the provision or restricts it to whomsoever He pleases of His slaves. Had it not been that Allah was Gracious to us, He could have caused the earth to swallow us up (also)! Know you not that the disbelievers will never be successful.

83 That home of the Hereafter (i.e. Paradise), We shall assign to those who rebel not against the truth with pride and oppression in the land nor do mischief by committing crimes. And the good end is for the Muttaqun (the pious - See V.2:2).

84 Whosoever brings good (Islamic Monotheism along with righteous deeds), he shall have the better thereof; and whosoever brings evil (polytheism along with evil deeds), then those who do evil deeds will only be requited for what they used to do.

85 Verily, He Who has given you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Qur'an (i.e. ordered you to act on its laws and to preach it to others) will surely bring you back to Ma'ad (place of return, either to Makkah or to Paradise after your death). Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "My Lord is Aware of him who brings guidance, and of him who is in manifest error."

[TRANSPONDER]

I see. And was all that long story of Moses taken from the Q'uran, or was it a novel, rather, based on the Quranic take on Moses?

[truth_teller]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

I see. And was all that long story of Moses taken from the Q'uran, or was it a novel, rather, based on the Quranic take on Moses?

The Quran contains the story of prophet Musa peace be upon him and other prophets .

the stories are mentioned as verses by Allah in Arabic language,

one short verse as one line long by Allah can have details of ten lines by the history author,

these details are taking from other sources
and these sources are

1- the saying of the prophet Muhammad peace and blessing of Allah be upon him (Hadith)
2- the previous Holy books (Torah , Gospel and Psalms )

any thing mentioned in the Quran is correct 100%
any thing mentioned in the Hadith it depends on its rank
and it can be sound hadith, good, weak or fabricated, forged

any thing mentioned in the previous Holy books (Torah , Gospel and Psalms ) if it is compatible with the Quran or the sound or good Hadith
then it is correct otherwise it can be true or fabricated, forged

in summary all that long story of Moses that is in this link Story of Prophet Musa/Moses and Haroon/Aaron (pbut)
taken from the islamic history based from the Holy Quran, Hadith and the previous Holy books.

[TRANSPONDER]

This guy?

(Wiki)
Ismail ibn Kathir (Arabic: ابن كثير‎, born c. 1300, died 1373) was a highly influential Sunni scholar of the Shafi'i school during the Mamluk rule of Syria, an expert on tafsir (Quranic exegesis) and faqīh (jurisprudence) as well as a historian.