Moses Myth: And You Thought Historizing Jesus Was Tough! (trinity, bishop, Commandment)
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29 (Pharaoh) said: "If thou dost put forward any god other than me, I will certainly put thee in prison!"
30 (Moses) said: "Even if I showed you something clear (and) convincing?"
31 (Pharaoh) said: "Show it then, if thou tellest the truth!"
32 So (Moses) threw his rod, and behold, it was a serpent, plain (for all to see)!
33 And he drew out his hand, and behold, it was white to all beholders!
34 (Pharaoh) said to the Chiefs around him: "This is indeed a sorcerer well-versed:
35 "His plan is to get you out of your land by his sorcery; then what is it ye counsel?"
36 They said: "Keep him and his brother in suspense (for a while), and dispatch to the Cities heralds to collect-
37 "And bring up to thee all (our) sorcerers well-versed."
38 So the sorcerers were got together for the appointment of a day well-known,
39 And the people were told: "Are ye (now) assembled?-
40 "That we may follow the sorcerers (in religion) if they win?"
41 So when the sorcerers arrived, they said to Pharaoh: "Of course - shall we have a (suitable) reward if we win?
42 He said: "Yea, (and more),- for ye shall in that case be (raised to posts) nearest (to my person)."
43 Moses said to them: "Throw ye - that which ye are about to throw!"
44 So they threw their ropes and their rods, and said: "By the might of Pharaoh, it is we who will certainly win!"
45 Then Moses threw his rod, when, behold, it straightway swallows up all the falsehoods which they fake!
46 Then did the sorcerers fall down, prostrate in adoration,
47 Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,
48 "The Lord of Moses and Aaron."
49 Said (Pharaoh): "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? surely he is your leader, who has taught you sorcery! but soon shall ye know! Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross!"
50 They said: "No matter! for us, we shall but return to our Lord!
51 "Only, our desire is that our Lord will forgive us our faults, that we may become foremost among the believers!"
52 By inspiration we told Moses: "Travel by night with my servants; for surely ye shall be pursued."
53 Then Pharaoh sent heralds to (all) the Cities,
54 (Saying): "These (Israelites) are but a small band,
55 "And they are raging furiously against us;
56 "But we are a multitude amply fore-warned."
57 So We expelled them from gardens, springs,
58 Treasures, and every kind of honourable position;
59 Thus it was, but We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things.
60 So they pursued them at sunrise.
61 And when the two bodies saw each other, the people of Moses said: "We are sure to be overtaken."
62 (Moses) said: "By no means! my Lord is with me! Soon will He guide me!"
63 Then We told Moses by inspiration: "Strike the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.
64 And We made the other party approach thither.
65 We delivered Moses and all who were with him;
66 But We drowned the others.
67 Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.
68 And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.
It might at least be an education for Christians to see what blind faith looks like from outside.
How did the Quran know about the location of the lowest land on earth?
How did the Quran know about the rotation of the earth ?
How did the Quran know about the Pulsar?
How did the Quran know about the shape of the earth?
How did the Quran know about the barrier in the seas?
How did the Quran know about development phases of the baby inside the womb?
How did the Quran know about the air pressure and oxygen is reduced resulting in a narrow in the chest
and difficulty in breathing when ascending to space ?
and there are more knowledge and miracles in the Holy Quran and it is not blind faith.
78 And he puts forth for Us a parable, and forgets his own creation. He says: "Who will give life to these bones after they are rotten and have become dust?"
79 Say: (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) "He will give life to them Who created them for the first time! And He is the All-Knower of every creation!"
80 He Who produces for you fire out of the green tree, when behold you kindle therewith.
81 Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth, Able to create the like of them? Yes, indeed! He is the All-Knowing Supreme Creator.
82 Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!" - and it is!
83 So glorified be He and exalted above all that they associate with Him, and in Whose Hands is the dominion of all things: and to Him you shall be returned.
How did the Quran know about the location of the lowest land on earth?
How did the Quran know about the rotation of the earth ?
How did the Quran know about the Pulsar?
How did the Quran know about the shape of the earth?
How did the Quran know about the barrier in the seas?
How did the Quran know about development phases of the baby inside the womb?
How did the Quran know about the air pressure and oxygen is reduced resulting in a narrow in the chest
and difficulty in breathing when ascending to space ?
and there are more knowledge and miracles in the Holy Quran and it is not blind faith.
78 And he puts forth for Us a parable, and forgets his own creation. He says: "Who will give life to these bones after they are rotten and have become dust?"
79 Say: (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) "He will give life to them Who created them for the first time! And He is the All-Knower of every creation!"
80 He Who produces for you fire out of the green tree, when behold you kindle therewith.
81 Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth, Able to create the like of them? Yes, indeed! He is the All-Knowing Supreme Creator.
82 Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!" - and it is!
83 So glorified be He and exalted above all that they associate with Him, and in Whose Hands is the dominion of all things: and to Him you shall be returned.
I've addressed some of those claims in other threads, yet you and other Muslims continue to read it as you want to read it.
The hypothesis of Atenism as an origin of Jewish monotheism was quite a fad a few decades ago.(1) Indeed, I read a book arguing that some OT reference (Zechariah, perhaps?) to temple treasure meant that there was an Egyptian temple somewhere with treasure hidden in the cellar.
The evidence coming out now indicates a different story. The Jews were never in Egypt en masse, either as slaves or not.
Well, the term "Jew" is anachronistic for the second millennium BCE. That designation arose around the seventh century BCE. There were many Semitic slaves in Egypt, though, and there is no reason to believe there could not have been some portion of an ethnic group that later contributed to the ethnogenesis of the Israelite state that had been living in Egypt as slaves. It is a peculiar origin story to just make up. The meat of the Israelite ethnos comes from Midian/Edom and from around Canaan, though.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
They never left Egypt as a nation either sent off with a Pharonic escort or pursued to bring them back. They never went into the desert to avoid the land of the philistines as it didn't exist yet.
And they didn't invade Canaan, but rather came down from the hills where they had been herding goats because the Canaanite city states had vanished in the upheaval that saw the Hittite empire vanish.
No, the hill country was a part of Canaan, and there is no evidence of any hill people coming down to take over after the Sea Peoples decimated the existing populations. Merneptah's stela already refers to the people of Israel existing before that destruction anyway.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
There was no-one left to grow corn or make jewellery, so the Hebrews - like the Ammonites, Moabites and Edomites would have to do it themselves.
There's no evidence of any such dynamic at work.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Inevitably they all fell to state conflict, and my suggestion - based on curent theory is that the early kings (Omri is named) were concerned that Israel should not turn to foreign gods and ways (David and Solomon might be seen as examples of worrying 'foreign' tendencies) and so a book of rules was written to ensure that the Hebrews would kep their identity intact. This had one first Law - no other gods but YHWH. In a later edition of the Book (one that perhaps borrowed from Mesopotamian myth for the creation, Flood and Moses) YHWH is not only the only god they should worship, but is the top god out of all the rest (2).
No, multiple gods were still the norm well after Omri. Even Hezekiah operated the temple at Arad, which had standing stones both for YHWH and for his consort. The terracotta figurines depicting some female deity were also normative in Jerusalem at the time of the exile. The attempt to consolidate the gods and the locations of worship was a political move on Kosiah's part, not an ethnic one. But that just provided us with an early version of Deuteronomy. The rest of Exodus and Deuteronomy would not take shape until the exilic period.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
In the final recension, all the other gods are false and only YHWH actually exists.
There is no portion in the Hebrew Bible that ever rejects the existence of other gods.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Hey presto, we have evolved monotheism, and it evidently does not derive from Atenism, quite apart from being several centuries too late.
The diachronic and geographic distance is all you need to show Atenism wasn't a factor, but your theory misses a lot of stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Since you dislike Moses so much you will be pleased to know that I can say with confidence that he never really exited.
No, you can't. You can say it's likely, but to say it "with confidence" is just bravado on the part of a hobbyist.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
No, I don't think so, and, since the Quran seems to agree that he did, the evidence is proving both the Bible and Quran wrong.
(1) Indeed, Nefertiti was well on the way to becoming a Christian female saint.
You're mistaking a borrowing of artistic form for a borrowing of characters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
(2) perhaps also an idea borrowed from Mesopotamia where each culture used the same creation myth - but their own tribal god as the hero.
That's not really an accurate characterization of Mesopotamia, and that's not where any inklings of monotheism came from.
Well, you could be right. While the Bible account seems dubious in the extreme, while I am suggesting that the Jews as a people were never in Egypt (until Greek times, when they fought street battles with the Hellenes in Alexandria)
You're not familiar with Elephantine?
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
but might have used a folk memory of the Hyksos expulsion as a basis for Exodus, you could be right that an Atenist priest (after Akhetaton was abandoned and the Egyptian priests re-established political dominance - the cult was political at bottom) with a few followers made his way to Canaan where he taught his religion which became Yahwehism.
No, that doesn't work at all. Atenism was a completely separate concept, and it didn't really have any firm believers apart from Akhenaten himself. It exist only during his reign because he forced it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
There are some problems with that. Given the present view of the Hebrews living in the hills herding goats until some 300 years later, it is probable that an Atenist priest would settle in one of the Canaanite city -states. He would have had to establish his Atenist religion as a minor local cult.
And where did this Atenist priest come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Nothing is known of any such cult, but more problematical is the Jews arriving in the abandoned cities - still with a thriving Atenist cult, mind you, and deciding to adapt their tribal god -religion to it. I think it is much more probable that it developed from a tribal cult amongst others and by degrees became more excluding until all the other gods became non -existent. That is what the Bible seems to show, at any rate.
The other gods didn't become non-existent until well after the Hebrew Bible was written, but you can find more info on the origin of Yahwism and the evolution of the conceptualization of God here and in chapter 3 of one of my graduate theses here.
Not particularly. Youa re saying that there were Jews there before Greek times? Whem and what evidence?
Quote:
No, that doesn't work at all. Atenism was a completely separate concept, and it didn't really have any firm believers apart from Akhenaten himself. It exist only during his reign because he forced it.
And where did this Atenist priest come from?
Don't ask me. I didn't think up the Yhwhism derived from Atenism theory. And you will recall that I said it didn't work, either.
Quote:
The other gods didn't become non-existent until well after the Hebrew Bible was written, but you can find more info on the origin of Yahwism and the evolution of the conceptualization of God here and in chapter 3 of one of my graduate theses here.
I don't disagree. The current view is that the OT reflects three views of YHwh. First one god amongst many, but the only one the Jews should worship.
Next the top god...haven't I already said this?
Third, the other gods are wood stone and metal and do not really exist. Thus monotheism.
I am going to take the previous post in one lump becvause it seems rather poor and confused. I consider a dissertation of the first appearance of the term 'Jew' academic and irrelevant. Jew, Hebrew, Israelite. I am sure in this context, you know what I mean.
There is fact archaeological evidence if hill people - and of course in Canaan or near it coming down after the Canaanite city states seemed to vanish aster the general upheaval of the 12th c BC. After that we have Ammon, Israel, Moab and Edom. We can look at at the evidence in an appropriate thread, but if you say there is no evidence, you may have some catching up to do.
Now I had heard of the images of YHWH and consort (1) but I had no idea they were so late and I am astonished at the idea that female deities were around at the time of the exile. I shall have to look into this.
Your evidence for suggesting that Deuteronomy took final shape in the exilic period? I don't disagree as you say that it existed in an early form before then, but I'd like to get an idea of how much was changed and how much can be dated to the exile and post exile.
I'm sure there are. Off the top of my head, Deuteronomy; and there is the discomfiture of the Priests of Baal. The implication is that Baal does not exist. There is a lot of stuff about I only and God, there in none other than Me. None before me, none after. But it can be argued that this means none for the Israelites but him.
My 'theory' (it is not mine) may miss out a lot of stuff but it sums up the relevant points, which is that (if it is correct) Atenism has no part to play in it.
May I should have correctly said it is likely, but in fact I feel pretty confident about it - mainly it is the striking similarity between the Biblical Moses and the story of Sargon of Akkad that gives this hobbyist the bravado to say with confidence that Moses did not exist. I do hope Mr McClellan, that your expertise in this area is up to what we would expect from the producer of a graduate thesis in this stuff . because if it does not stack up up on your side, I shall see no reason to let you down lightly.
Now, about Nefertiti, the iconic reverence for the iconic image helped, but it was the idea that Akhnaton was a sort of proto monotheist that prompted some to suggest that she (though some divine influence) was the guiding force behind Akhnaton's new religion. So you got me wrong, but it was a fad that was not long -lived so maybe you never came across it.
The Creation epic began with the Sumerian top god, El, I believe, and the Babylonians simply replaced him with their god, Marduk and the Assyrians replaced Marduk with Assur. If that is right -and I am sure that it is - your scholarship is lacking, and is your readong ability and recall apparently since I never suggested that Mesopotamia was the origin of monotheism.
In fact it relates to this "YHWH is not only the only god they should worship, but is the top god out of all the rest (2)". To which I added "(2) perhaps also an idea borrowed from Mesopotamia where each culture used the same creation myth - but their own tribal god as the hero.".
(1) We know also that Yahweh supplanted the Canaanite El to the extent that God’s other names in the Hebrew Bible include El, El Elyon ("God Most High"), El Shaddai ("God Almighty"), and the (originally) plural form Elohim (as in Gen. 1:1). Yahweh and Asherah
Not particularly. Youa re saying that there were Jews there before Greek times? Whem and what evidence?
Israelites have been in Egypt since Israel became a state, but I'm referring to a specific community. In the fifth century BCE there were garrisons of Jewish soldiers stationed at Elephantine near the first cataract of the Nile. They likely arrived there in the seventh century BCE. The evidence is their temple and their numerous correspondences with Jerusalem officials. The corpus is called the Elephantine Papyri. Here's one of their letters:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Don't ask me. I didn't think up the Yhwhism derived from Atenism theory. And you will recall that I said it didn't work, either.
I don't disagree. The current view is that the OT reflects three views of YHwh. First one god amongst many, but the only one the Jews should worship.
Next the top god...haven't I already said this?
Third, the other gods are wood stone and metal and do not really exist. Thus monotheism.
I am going to take the previous post in one lump becvause it seems rather poor and confused. I consider a dissertation of the first appearance of the term 'Jew' academic and irrelevant. Jew, Hebrew, Israelite. I am sure in this context, you know what I mean.
It's not academic. An Israelite was not necessarily a Jew.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
There is fact archaeological evidence if hill people - and of course in Canaan or near it coming down after the Canaanite city states seemed to vanish aster the general upheaval of the 12th c BC.
By all means, cite the publications that show this evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
After that we have Ammon, Israel, Moab and Edom. We can look at at the evidence in an appropriate thread, but if you say there is no evidence, you may have some catching up to do.
No, I don't have "catching up" to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Now I had heard of the images of YHWH and consort (1) but I had no idea they were so late and I am astonished at the idea that female deities were around at the time of the exile. I shall have to look into this.
Yes, you have lots of catching up to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Your evidence for suggesting that Deuteronomy took final shape in the exilic period?
The numerous thematic and formal affinities with Deutero-Isaiah, the references to a God who is not in their midst, the promises of restoration, and a thousand other things I'm not going to get into here. You have some catching up to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I don't disagree as you say that it existed in an early form before then, but I'd like to get an idea of how much was changed and how much can be dated to the exile and post exile.
Not much has changed in a while. I think you're just quite out of the loop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I'm sure there are. Off the top of my head, Deuteronomy;
Deuteronomy repeatedly acknowledges the existence of the gods, and even has El responsible for their rule over the nations. Surely you're familiar with the original versions of Deut 32:8–9, 43.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
and there is the discomfiture of the Priests of Baal.
Baal was a Northwestern storm-deity, just like YHWH. They were both called "Cloud-Rider," and they both had their voice compared to lightning. They were uncomfortable with Baal because he was competition for those looking for a storm-deity to worship. YHWH was the outsider. There is no El-polemic in the Hebrew Bible because the El profile observed by the Israelites was native to the area.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
The implication is that Baal does not exist.
No such implication exists. What is insisted is that Baal is worthless compared to YHWH. Do you also believe that the Raiders don't really exist just because Broncos fans say they aren't a real football team?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
There is a lot of stuff about I only and God, there in none other than Me. None before me, none after. But it can be argued that this means none for the Israelites but him.
My 'theory' (it is not mine) may miss out a lot of stuff but it sums up the relevant points, which is that (if it is correct) Atenism has no part to play in it.
May I should have correctly said it is likely, but in fact I feel pretty confident about it - mainly it is the striking similarity between the Biblical Moses and the story of Sargon of Akkad that gives this hobbyist the bravado to say with confidence that Moses did not exist.
The parallels there do not extend beyond the birth narrative. Alexander the Great's birth narrative is even more stereotypically mythological, but he was real, wasn't he?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I do hope Mr McClellan, that your expertise in this area is up to what we would expect from the producer of a graduate thesis in this stuff . because if it does not stack up up on your side, I shall see no reason to let you down lightly.
You are too far behind to pretend to speak down to me about any of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Now, about Nefertiti, the iconic reverence for the iconic image helped, but it was the idea that Akhnaton was a sort of proto monotheist that prompted some to suggest that she (though some divine influence) was the guiding force behind Akhnaton's new religion. So you got me wrong, but it was a fad that was not long -lived so maybe you never came across it.
The Creation epic began with the Sumerian top god, El, I believe,
There was never a Sumerian god called El. El is a Semitic term, not a Sumerian one. You're still arguing from amateur misunderstandings of the scholarship.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
and the Babylonians simply replaced him with their god, Marduk and the Assyrians replaced Marduk with Assur.
Nope. El was not a part of that pantheon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
If that is right -and I am sure that it is
It is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
your scholarship is lacking, and is your readong ability and recall apparently since I never suggested that Mesopotamia was the origin of monotheism.
In fact it relates to this "YHWH is not only the only god they should worship, but is the top god out of all the rest (2)". To which I added "(2) perhaps also an idea borrowed from Mesopotamia where each culture used the same creation myth - but their own tribal god as the hero.".
And that's an incorrect characterization of Mesopotamian religious history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
(1) We know also that Yahweh supplanted the Canaanite El to the extent that God’s other names in the Hebrew Bible include El, El Elyon ("God Most High"), El Shaddai ("God Almighty"), and the (originally) plural form Elohim (as in Gen. 1:1).
No supplantation whatsoever. YHWH and El were conflated. I already linked you to the thesis where I discuss that in great detail.
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O, the bravado of the hobbyist
to say with confidence that Moses did not exist. I do hope Mr McClellan, that your expertise in this area is up to what we would expect from the producer of a graduate thesis in this stuff 
. because if it does not stack up up on your side, I shall see no reason to let you down lightly. 
