Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Religious people, especially the more devout, see God behind every splash of a raindrop, the destination of every floating dust mote, and the pitch and timbre of every beer fart. Thus when something is prayed for and it occurs, God did it. They actually believe that if they had not prayed, that boon would not have happened. However, if nothing happens, then God simply said no.
If nothing happens, its just not the right time for action or answer. It also may not be the answer YOU want. You can pray for a baby for years and nothing happen. Hes not saying no. Hes saying not right now. Finally when you least expect it, you get a live in nanny job for a newborn and there is the baby you prayed for. It may not be your baby, it may not be the ideal exact situation you thought but he answered you. Had he answered you before and said " Go be a nanny" you may have missed the perfect place to be.
Of course I know that, but isn't that what parents tell their kids? God is not a magic genie. He wants what's best for us.
Like hell he does. God has ALWAYS wanted what's best for himself. Always.
Even the existence of humanity was done for his own benefit - it's not as though humanity was sitting around beforehand thinking, "Gee, wouldn't it be cool if we actually existed?"
This truism is further evidenced by the fact that God never, not even once, asked anyone what they wanted and then granted it to them. No, I'm not talking about prayer - which is humanity soliciting God for a boon which may or may not be given. I'm talking about God actually asking a mortal what he/she wants under the assumption that the request would be granted (within reason of course).
Instead, everything out of God's mouth is a command, an edict, an absolute rule. It must be this way and other because I said so. Even the smallest, simplest rules were never open to any kind of debate nor were the wishes of any human or the species entire was taken into consideration.
Plus, with God's infinite power, no request or desire had to be irrevokably harmful.
For instance, if God asked humanity what foods we would like taken off the "unclean" list - and humanity responded overwhelmingly with "pork!" (we just love our bacon) - God could have simply said, "Very well, you may now eat pork." Any actual danger in eating it could be waved away with but the tiniest force of will from an all-powerful creator-god.
But that never happens. It's all about what God wants. This idea that God has our best interests at heart is just plain rubbish. Mankind has always written our gods to be way above the indignity of seeking a mortal's desires and then granting them without getting something in return. Even our gods have never been known for their altruism - even Jesus expected to be worshiped, thus, his miracles were not given free of charge.
Gods of all stripes and religions have always been dictators and authoritarians - and they aren't known for giving two craps about what WE want even when it was within the god's power to grant it.
Which is why I have constantly harped on the truth that God's love is hollow, sterile, and lacks any degree of warmth. Such is the nature of love without respect, and while God can love us, hold us, squeeze us, pet us, and name us all George, he will NEVER respect us enough to bother with OUR wants, wishes, and desires. Imagine being married to someone like that ... would you happily endure it for the rest of your life?
Even strict parents will usually ask what their kids want for their birthdays and Christmas - instead of buying them only what the parents want them to have. It's sort of like a father buying a new set of metric wrenches for his 8 year-old daughter's birthday ... because the father thinks its important for everyone to have a set of metric wrenches (and the father has been needing a set, too, and has been looking for an excuse to buy one for the past 6 months).
The comparison to human parents is a poor one - because human parents cannot change reality. Parents cannot change the dangers of eating pork no matter how much their kids want bacon for breakfast. But God can simply blink away those dangers in order to acquiesce to the wants of humans. God's refusal to even ask what we want, much less change reality to grant it, tells me that there is no "best interest at heart" going on here. I'm only seeing the same megalomania that so typifies all fictional gods throughout our history.
If nothing happens, its just not the right time for action or answer. It also may not be the answer YOU want. You can pray for a baby for years and nothing happen. Hes not saying no. Hes saying not right now. Finally when you least expect it, you get a live in nanny job for a newborn and there is the baby you prayed for. It may not be your baby, it may not be the ideal exact situation you thought but he answered you. Had he answered you before and said " Go be a nanny" you may have missed the perfect place to be.
No, Ohky, that's just falling victim to pareidolia. You threw out a request and now you're hyper-vigilant for some kind of answer - and people usually see precisely what they want to see once they become hyper-vigilant for signs and portents.
Praying for a baby and ending up stuck being a nanny to someone else's baby 30 years later is hardly an answer to a prayer. There is no real connection between the prayer and the outcome - except to those who see answered prayers like people see the Virgin Mary on a burnt piece of toast.
Bottom line is that you're merely moving the goal posts all around the playing field. You've made the parameters of an "answered" prayer so broad and ambiguous that you end up scoring a goal no matter which way you kick the ball - because you'll move the goal post to wherever the ball happens to be going.
Therefore, your explanation is, for all intents and purposes, a non-answer and ensures that answered prayers are virtually indistinguishable from random chance.
Because your not religious; so of curse do not understand. Why does in bother you as your not involved? In secular words :butt out.
Oh right, the condescending, "You're not one of us, so you wouldn't understand" crap. Never mind the fact that the vast majority of atheists were once religious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav
In secular words :butt out.
No.
Because it's a free country, and this forum was designed for an exchange of ideas and debate. You see, atheists really aren't hip to the latent authoritarianism and fascism that WAY too many Christians endorse (which is why, yet again, we have another Christian telling atheists to "sit down and shut up" because we're not supposed to be voicing our opinions anywhere - not even on a discussion forum on the internet).
So, Mr. Fascist, how about instead of telling us to "butt out" you instead take a typing class - or learn to spell because your grasp of the English language appears to be rather poor. I of curse [sic] do understand that much.
Your attitude reveals more about why she is your ex-wife than you probably intended. Such self-centered analysis and action reveals a complete lack of consideration for anyone else in your life.
Uh ... I recall we all hashed this one out some time ago. It wasn't pretty then and I doubt plastic surgery, a make-over, and a new dress will make it any prettier this time around.
Personally, I think the one lying in the hospital bed fighting for his life should be the one everyone considers. Those of sound mind and body standing around in the hospital room should be there to help cupper3 feel comfortable and loved. It shouldn't be about what the "ex" wants; she's not the one lying in that bed. To my mind, dragging in a priest despite cupper3's objection is like cupper3's "ex" forcing him to lie there through a 2-hour Don Ho concert despite cupper3 hating Don Ho (and Don Ho just happened to be the "ex's" favorite musician). Who here is really being selfish? Or is this another example of religious conceit whereby religion MUST be respected and placated - even by an atheist lying powerless in a hospital bed. I doubt anyone would be criticizing cupper3 if his wife had gotten upset over his objection to listening to Don Ho. But because it was a priest set to perform some mambo-jahambo over cupper3's defenseless body, suddenly the tables are turned and it's all cupper3's fault for refusing to give religion the respect it expects and demands.
Yeah, not pretty at all. See what I mean? Muhahahaha!
Last edited by Shirina; 11-12-2014 at 02:28 AM..
Reason: My first draft died in its hospital bed upon realizing Don Ho became a priest and was praying to the tune of 'Tiny Bubbles.'
You can 110% be mad Billy got cancer and God didnt heal him but praise him for no suffering and that he had a good 3 month left and 93 years on earth.
Well, no, not really. Most of us atheists don't make those kinds of exceptions.
Now, someone who is 93 and is just now getting cancer ... sure, that's an easy one.
But what if it's a child lying in a hospital bed dying of leukemia? Just what, precisely, are we supposed to praise God for in that kind of a scenario?
I would never praise a serial killer for murdering his victims quickly, so there is no reason for me to praise a deity who would give a child terminal cancer that kills her before she had time to suffer.
Last edited by Shirina; 11-12-2014 at 02:46 AM..
Reason: I was too busy praising the typo god for not making me write a typo that would get bleeped by the auto-censor. Whew!
If nothing happens, its just not the right time for action or answer. It also may not be the answer YOU want. You can pray for a baby for years and nothing happen. Hes not saying no. Hes saying not right now. Finally when you least expect it, you get a live in nanny job for a newborn and there is the baby you prayed for. It may not be your baby, it may not be the ideal exact situation you thought but he answered you. Had he answered you before and said " Go be a nanny" you may have missed the perfect place to be.
Um ... do you not understand that these three things are functionally equivalent?
* God might answer "yes", "no", or "maybe later"
* You get something you prayed for, in a back-handed way, if you look at it just right -- years after you ask
* Random happenstance
I was fine with god not being a magic cosmic candy dispenser beholden to my every whim. But I asked for lots of absolutely necessary things that were in no way self centered when I was a Christian, and those prayers got "answered" no differently than the above bullet points too. People suffered greatly and died as a result of those non-answers. Families were torn apart, childhoods laid waste, trust destroyed, hope lost.
But no, we mustn't talk about any outcome that doesn't fit the dogma. Nor must god answer for anything but pleasant and good outcomes. He has zero responsibility; it's all on us.
it's wonderful when it comforts us
it's wonderful when it's an expression of praise
it's wonderful when it's used to give thanks
BUT
it's useless when you're looking for a tangible result from it. Then it's just the law of averages working. It's a roll of the dice. Some prayer gets answered; some does not. But some patients cure spontaneously without prayer, other die with prayer. The rates are about the same across the board for any religion, proving that Christians have no corner on the prayer market. God seems to honor/not honor prayers at the exact same rate for everyone. We call that playing the odds.
Thrillobyte, I sincerely appreciate this post. You are the first praying person I have ever encountered that has stated that the kind of prayer that asks for a tangible result is useless. Wow. Every other person I have ever discussed this with would perform elaborate scriptural and logical gymnastics to "prove" that prayer does indeed work.
May I ask, how do you view the numerous Bible verses that do clearly state that our prayers will be answered?...by extension, how do you view the Bible overall?
Life's experiences always left me confused about the purpose/effectiveness of prayer, but somehow, for decades, I still believed in its power. There was a huge disconnect between what I experienced and what I believed. It was like looking at something red, but declaring and believing with every fiber of my being that it is blue.
As a former fundamentalist, it was all or nothing for me. When there was finally a "straw that broke the camel's back," and I could no longer believe in inerrancy of the Bible, everything about god and Christ became a huge question mark (hence my self-description of humbly ignorant agnostic). That is why I am so curious about how you view the Bible. (Maybe this should be a separate thread, or even a PM)
Like hell he does. God has ALWAYS wanted what's best for himself. Always.
Even the existence of humanity was done for his own benefit - it's not as though humanity was sitting around beforehand thinking, "Gee, wouldn't it be cool if we actually existed?"
This truism is further evidenced by the fact that God never, not even once, asked anyone what they wanted and then granted it to them. No, I'm not talking about prayer - which is humanity soliciting God for a boon which may or may not be given. I'm talking about God actually asking a mortal what he/she wants under the assumption that the request would be granted (within reason of course).
Instead, everything out of God's mouth is a command, an edict, an absolute rule. It must be this way and other because I said so. Even the smallest, simplest rules were never open to any kind of debate nor were the wishes of any human or the species entire was taken into consideration.
Plus, with God's infinite power, no request or desire had to be irrevokably harmful.
For instance, if God asked humanity what foods we would like taken off the "unclean" list - and humanity responded overwhelmingly with "pork!" (we just love our bacon) - God could have simply said, "Very well, you may now eat pork." Any actual danger in eating it could be waved away with but the tiniest force of will from an all-powerful creator-god.
But that never happens. It's all about what God wants. This idea that God has our best interests at heart is just plain rubbish. Mankind has always written our gods to be way above the indignity of seeking a mortal's desires and then granting them without getting something in return. Even our gods have never been known for their altruism - even Jesus expected to be worshiped, thus, his miracles were not given free of charge.
Gods of all stripes and religions have always been dictators and authoritarians - and they aren't known for giving two craps about what WE want even when it was within the god's power to grant it.
Which is why I have constantly harped on the truth that God's love is hollow, sterile, and lacks any degree of warmth. Such is the nature of love without respect, and while God can love us, hold us, squeeze us, pet us, and name us all George, he will NEVER respect us enough to bother with OUR wants, wishes, and desires. Imagine being married to someone like that ... would you happily endure it for the rest of your life?
Even strict parents will usually ask what their kids want for their birthdays and Christmas - instead of buying them only what the parents want them to have. It's sort of like a father buying a new set of metric wrenches for his 8 year-old daughter's birthday ... because the father thinks its important for everyone to have a set of metric wrenches (and the father has been needing a set, too, and has been looking for an excuse to buy one for the past 6 months).
The comparison to human parents is a poor one - because human parents cannot change reality. Parents cannot change the dangers of eating pork no matter how much their kids want bacon for breakfast. But God can simply blink away those dangers in order to acquiesce to the wants of humans. God's refusal to even ask what we want, much less change reality to grant it, tells me that there is no "best interest at heart" going on here. I'm only seeing the same megalomania that so typifies all fictional gods throughout our history.
Why are you so angry with a god that doesn't exist?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
