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Remember that "push back" I told you about. Well...here is a small taste.
You people better hope some guy like Rick Santorum doesn't ever sit in the Oval Office. Then you're in for it!!
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So, is it okay to have that most basic law (actually more than a law--a "right") violated over something as insignificant as saving people the hassle of going to a different vendor to buy something?
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Let both the Buyers and Sellers be completely free to choose who they will do business with...for whatever reason they choose. The Buyers already have that freedom...the Sellers should have it too. If a Seller can't force a Buyer to buy from them...a Buyer shouldn't be able to force a Seller to sell to them. If not...it's not "fair" or "equal".
I believe that anyone in private business should have the legal right to refuse to serve anyone, for any reason. No need to even state what the reason is.
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You cannot be serious. Sure Santorum is evil, but plenty of areas have one grocery, one doctor or dentist, or a dearth of others who market the vital needs and necessities of life, so do such vendors have the moral right to deny life's necessities?
Private hospitals are businesses. Should an ER let someone die on the lawn because the doc or nurse "believes sincerely" that the patient is work of the devil? BTW Christianity teaches that you have obligations to your fellow human beings.
You cannot be serious. Sure Santorum is evil, but plenty of areas have one grocery, one doctor or dentist, or a dearth of others who market the vital needs and necessities of life, so do such vendors have the moral right to deny life's necessities?
Private hospitals are businesses. Should an ER let someone die on the lawn because the doc or nurse "believes sincerely" that the patient is work of the devil? BTW Christianity teaches that you have obligations to your fellow human beings.
What's with the hyperbolic, over-the-top scenarios? I don't get it.
Wow! It is quite something what I see some people think of others and how they assume the most terrible things of people. Where do they get this from? People that live in rankest ghetto think more of people than what I see here.
No...99.99999999999999% of the time, business will just flow and transact like it always does...no problem.
There will be LESS problems with greater Liberty and Freedom...not more. Trying to force interactions that are just not meant to be is the problem.
Don't worry, even under my "full liberty & freedom" system...everyone would be able to shop to their hearts content...any time and anywhere they want...I'm sure.
I don't see the huge "threat" of religion in the U.S. in these current times...not like what is put forth by some. Some even say the religious would make this a theocracy if they could.
But, if we really think about it..they COULD do that...even with the current system. It isn't like they already aren't "organized" to act en mass if that was their true propensity.
With numbers like they have (80% of the electorate) they could vote out whoever they want out, and vote in whoever they want in...at the smallest local level to the national level. They could so heavily skew the Federal Government they could pass any and all legislation/laws they wanted...even amend the Constitution to whatever they wanted it to say we had to do/be...vote to disband the Supreme Court...override any Presidential veto if they hadn't voted their own person in yet.
And it could happen in just one 4 year election cycle. I'd like you to logically dispute that they couldn't...if they decided to organize and "push back" en mass & "full force", using the system that is in place.
IMO...the reason they haven't/don't...is because they are nowhere near as bad as it is purported that they are.
I don't believe the religious are the "evil" some claim they are. I actually have no real problem with them.
I mean...I've been in the porn biz for almost 30 years, and other than some minor hassles, they never really came down on me. And they probably hate what I put into the public sphere more than anything...it represents all the evils put together...lust, greed, homosexuality, adultery, incest, you name it.
But then, I'm smart enough not to directly stir up a nest of bees.
Considering how horrible some claim the religious are...and given their vast numbers, and how our political system of "majority votes rule" functions...why would they expect anything else?
Actually...we better hope you are wrong about the religious. Because if they are really as terrible and crazy as it is purported by some here...the Atheists are doomed...nonreligious Theists like me too.
The government should stay totally out of it. Private businesses should never be classified as "public accommodations"...they got that all wrong.
A public business, like a utility company, is a different story...they must serve everybody, no matter what. But a sole proprietorship or privately held corporation?..that should be left sovereign.
It's impossible for the government to stay out of it - because businesses, whether "public" or "private" need oversight. Someone - some agency, some organization has to hold businesses and their officers responsible for how they conduct their businesses. Otherwise, in any free-market, for-profit system, businesses will cheat and lie and scam money out of people in every way possible. Their products won't be safe, they won't do as they are advertised to do, etc. etc.
You cannot, I repeat, you cannot EVER have a civil society if business owners are allowed to do whatever the hell they want and discriminate however and against whomever they want.
It's amazing you would even hold this position given that Ferguson is still in the news. How many race riots do you suppose they'll be if every racist and bigot is given license to discriminate? How many revenge murders? How many cases of arson, vandalism, assault and battery, and other crimes do you suppose there will be if this kind of free-for-all Wild West position is allowed to manifest?
AND ... couple that with these Southern states that are egging people on to walk around armed everywhere they go. Uh huh. What you're advocating, whether you realize it or not, is to turn at least half the country into Dodge City, Kansas or Tombstone, Arizona. Over time, it will fundamentally divide the nation even worse than it is now - in fact, it would be a debilitating paralysis as increasing numbers of people engage in "civil disobedience" in order to get government back into the business world.
It's not difficult to sit back and be an idealist - and I agree, we shouldn't NEED the government to oversee and legislate free enterprise. But we do.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
Next thing you know they will tell Curves Fitness Centers they can't keep their "women only" business model...or my business associate that also owns a stripclub like mine will have to admit male patrons on the nights he has a "male review"...or the Black Miss America contest has to let in white girls, and guys too.
I'd just thought I'd warn you - almost every sentence that begins with "Next thing you know" is a harbinger for a fallacious slippery slope argument. Considering all of the things you've listed here have been around for quite some time - and given that people have already sued for things like allowing girls to play football - it would seem to me that if some guy REALLY wanted to join 'Curves' or if a white male wants to enter the Black Miss American pageant, it would have happened by now.
Point being here is that society is sane enough to know where to draw the line between offering a service or an event catering to a specific gender or demographic group and blatant, flagrant bigotry, racism, and sexism. You make it sound like if this Michigan bill fails, everyone will be out to join every club and enroll for every event designed for someone else. Next thing you know, women will be demanding to have prostate examinations and men will demand to see OBGYNs. WooooOOO!
No ... because it's like that already. If individuals and society in general really thought 'Curves' was being purposefully sexist because the owners hate men, then yeah, good chance someone would have done something about it by now. They haven't. And if they haven't done so by now, they probably never will. The Michigan bill is irrelevant in that regard.
*sigh* As usual you demonstrate your utter and complete ignorance of what the Constitution does and how it works. My guess is that you obtained your civics and government education from a snake-handling fundamentalist somewhere in the backwoods of Alabama.
Try inciting a riot, for instance, and see how infinite the Bill of Rights actually is. Go ahead, I dare you.
Wow, you're so nice and loving!
I recognize that we can't walk on other people's rights. But the Constitution does not guarantee that Mark and Todd can buy their wedding cake at any bakery they want.
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There ought to be a Phundy Pharmy just for you, Vizio, where there is no birth control and you always get YOUR way. Everyone else be damned no matter how far out of their way they have to drive or even if it's feasible for them to get there.
Other freedoms don't matter to you one bit - and I can guarantee you that an overwhelming majority of people are pro-contraception (regardless of what they might say publicly) and that same overwhelming majority would appreciate not having to worry if the pharmacist they go to will fill their script.
Atheists don't get jobs at Christian bookstores and then deny Christians a Bible. So believers need to show the rest of us the same damn respect.
My wife and I used contraception. I don't believe it's evil. I've never said that. Heck, I went under the knife to get snipped after our last child. But I don't believe you have the right to tell a pharmacist what he/she needs to sell in their business.
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I'm not interested in the Constitution. Know why? Because neither are you - unless you can use it to further the primacy and spread of your religious beliefs. If you THINK the Constitution works in your favor, you'll pull it out and wave it around, point to it, stick out your tongue and go "nyah nyah" and do a little happy dance.
But when it DOESN'T agree with you, somehow the Constitution isn't anywhere to be seen in your posts. You'll use that document for your own personal doormat upon which to wipe the mud off your feet. You'll use it as toilet paper after the worst case of runs you've ever had in your life. You'll use it as kindling to start a fire in your fire place.
People like you do this a lot - you cherry pick the Constitution just like you cherry pick the Bible. About the only place you don't do cherry picking is in a cherry tree orchard.
Please stop telling me what I believe. That sort of thing just makes you look bad.
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No, you mean owned by bigots. Yeah, that's far more accurate. Those "gay activist bigots" (LOL!) are neither activists or bigots. They aren't discriminating against Christians - in fact they're willing to pay a Christian to help the Christian feed his family. That's hardly discrimination. A bigot against Christians wouldn't go anywhere near a Christian bakery - and I doubt very much that the gay couple in question conspired to deliberately ask a Christian bakery to do their cake.
Just like MLK was a black activist bigot against all those Southern white store owners who insisted on segregated water fountains and restrooms, eh, Vizio? Oh, but since it's religion, discrimination and 2nd class personhood is perfectly acceptable.
No...I mean the homosexual activist bigots that could choose to go to any of a number of other businesses, but they choose to go to THAT one just to make the point. Do you honestly think they couldn't find another bakery to do a more than adequate job?
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I wonder how many racists in the South said that exact same thing about blacks fighting for the right to vote - or those who fought against segregation, etc. I bet a lot of them did.
You're just a reincarnation of the same intolerant "good ole boy" of yesteryear. Oh yeah, and your reaction above is why I have no love for fundamentalist religion. It's also why every society with a majority of fundamentalist believers end up swimming in the blood of anyone not a fundamentalist.
Why must you insult black people by comparing sexual choices to skin color?
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So what? The passing of the 14th Amendment did away with all of that nonsense (and most of the former colonies removed their state religions well before then.)
By the way - some people, like you right now, behave as though the United States still belongs to the Founders and we're only "house sitting" until they get back. So we better not move any of the furniture or dirty any of the dishes!
NO!
The 14th Amendment does not invalidate the Bill of Rights.
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This country belongs to US now, not the Founders. Those men weren't perfect, they weren't demi-gods, not everything in the Constitution should have been there (like slavery) and not everything that should be in there was included (like health care being a right). That's why there are lots of amendments.
So honestly, I've never been altogether interested in what the Founders wanted. I don't want to live in someone else's country. I want to live in MY country, one that is led from the present into the future and not one governed by the past. That's how many nations failed - looking backwards instead of forwards when it came time to lead.
I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree. We have some very different ideas on things.
If you don't like how the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution, change it. What irritates me is when people just decide to toss it out the window. It's our rule book. It says we have religious freedom. That means we have religious freedom.
I wonder how many racists in the South said that exact same thing about blacks fighting for the right to vote - or those who fought against segregation, etc. I bet a lot of them did.
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Having lived through those times I'd say the majority of them did. As did the majority of people who didn't like students (or anyone else) protesting against the draft and the war in Vietnam.
MANY of the people who didn't like the fact that people were protesting the war and the draft put bumper stickers on their cars that said: "America: Love It Or Leave It". It meant they were sick of the activists. (The activists didn't listen. They kept on using the First Amendment.)
Last edited by DewDropInn; 12-11-2014 at 11:23 AM..
From reading these comments about the need for business owners, and it seems only business owners, to religious freedoms. What is so special about business owners (used to be one by the way) that their religious sensiblities are more important then their employees or people that work for corporations or governments. I understand that they are risking money by opening up a business but they are not being asked to risk that investment, only to serve a customer. I never thought my investment into my business was ever as risky as what a fireman has to risk going into a burning building. But under these comments his or her religious believes do not matter, if they want to be a fireman they need to fight fires in homes of homosexuals as well as KKK etc. Business owners have to follow all the other laws and by-laws so in everything else they are not special. A business owner has no more rights to holler FIRE in a crowded theatre than anyone else for example
So is it a matter of religious freedoms or placing business owners above everyone else in importance?
(The activists didn't listen. They kept on using the First Amendment.)
The Conservatives did something that was much more effective. They elected Richard Nixon who eventually ended the Vietnam War started by Kennedy and Johnson.
But it is just the business owner that has the right?
Yes, as I understand the law. He or she is the one who is being asked to provide the service.
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