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I've frequently heard this hypocrisy comment and recognize that it is probably true in the church, since the church is filled with people.
However, a thought comes to mind: 'The grocery store is also filled with hypocrites; -- have you also stopped shopping for groceries?'
No. Because I am sure that groceries are real, and needed to live on.
I am also sure on the basis or reason and evidence that the bread that came down from heaven does not exist and the boutique chiesa is selling the contents of empty shelves.
No. Because I am sure that groceries are real, and needed to live on.
I am also sure on the basis or reason and evidence that the bread that came down from heaven does not exist and the boutique chiesa is selling the contents of empty shelves.
In conversation with an Episcopalian back in my theist days, I suggested that complaints of hypocrisy and other forms of insincerity in the church were unrealistic, on the basis that if anyone were to find the perfect church, they would go and join it, and ruin it. The implication being that the only perfect church would have zero members.
I recall the exchange because my Episcopalian friend surprised me by thinking my statement was hilarious; apparently he had never heard or thought of that argument before. He went away from my innocuous statement thinking he had heard great wisdom. I felt good about it, if bemused.
I have to admit that I still provisionally believe the same thing; even an idealist like myself knew better than to have lofty expectations of anything involving a bunch of people. However, there is another personal experience which is "sticky" in my memory, too, that explains the perspective of those who are bummed out with hypocrisy in the church. The last pastor I sat under, said this from the pulpit one day when he was adjuring his flock to have compassion and empathy for the struggles of others, and not to sit in judgment upon them: "The church is the only army that shoots its own wounded".
I think that most folks who decry hypocrisy in the church are not really expecting perfection, but have been wounded and betrayed and in various ways kicked when they are down. So I was right about what I said to my Episcopalian friend, without invalidating what most people mean when they decry church hypocrisy.
Christians generally create an expectation that something better can be expected inside the church than outside it, so while reasonable people allow for the humanity of church folks, they also take those same church folk seriously when they claim to have a better moral compass, greater love, and greater compassion. I would submit that most people decrying church hypocrisy simply don't see anything to lift them up, inspire them, and make them desire what Christians have.
I will relate an example from my late wife's experience which gave even her pause, and she remained a believer to the bitter end. She had an illness which left her very unpredictably feeling nearly okay now and then, terrible most of the time and basically bedridden now and then. It was also a rare illness without the social cachet and bonafides of, say, cancer, and without overt disfigurement or manifestation -- one of the so-called "invisible illnesses" (predictably, now that she's dead and it's no use to her, there's a medically accepted diagnostic test for it, but not when she lived).
At any rate, she was trying to plug into a local church but they were obsessed with measuring each other's sincerity and status by their "commitment" and "involvement". It was the typical "doing rather than being" approach to things. Because my wife loathed constantly canceling out appointments when people were counting on her, she chose to be honest and explain that she could not always be present for the ladies Bible Study or whatever depending on the ups and downs of her illness, nor could she realistically maintain the sort of marathon pace most of them seemed bent upon. Instead of understanding and support, she was met with judgment and accused of being a malingerer -- accused, of course, in the usual subtle and deniable ways, as people didn't want to appear overtly unkind. In essence they had no interest in her because she could not prove her fealty to the cause in the particular concrete terms they demanded of her. It was at that point that she realized church was largely no longer an option for her, and she had to let it go. I had already dropped out of the game by then, but my believing wife couldn't make the cut, either.
These are the kinds of incidents, the sort of judgmentalism and cliquishness and otherizing even within the group, that people run afoul of. And they are unnecessary, especially in an organization that is supposed to be "better than that". Is it universal? Of course not. In my experience there are subgroups within most churches where most folks can find a place, but they don't overcome certain stigmas, guilt-by-association, and can't generally handle honest questioning and healthy doubt. Nor can they handle that their value-propositions aren't that compelling to a lot of comers; they take that as an affront rather than an opportunity for humility and self-improvement.
I find it rather strange that there are people out there that do no go to church because of the people that attend them, yet still attend work everyday even though they do work with obnoxious people.
I find it rather strange that there are people out there that do no go to church because of the people that attend them, yet still attend work everyday even though they do work with obnoxious people.
If churchgoers got a cheque at the end of every service, they'd have an incentive to put up with knobs.
Over the years I have talked to so many non-believers in my family, friends, acquaintances, and even strangers and I have notice a very common theme amongst most if not all of them, that their experiences with the church turned them off to becoming a Christian. It seems as though people and the actions that people take have often dictated how far people will go in the faith. I even had a conversation with my brother, who is not a believer, about this last night and he just started speaking about some of the negative experiences he had in church, the utter hypocrisy and how he moved further away from the church.
One thing seems clear to me, too often people put their faith in other people. That is one thing that I explained to my brother. To be a Christian it's important for you to have a relationship with God independent of the church you attend because a church should not determine your faith. I am certainly not excusing the behavior that goes on in the modern day church because a lot of it is off putting but I am just starting to wonder if the church has become to focus on pointing people to people instead of the word of God or are we just seeing people who have a flawed concept of what Christianity should be in spite of being taught otherwise?
A lot of people, if not most or all people, require confirmation of their opinions and beliefs from others. It's hard to be a liberal in a red state because the people around you don't feel the same as you and have different opinions about issues you feel important. Going to church with doubts is really no different. Churches and religious leaders often approach doubt about one's belief in one of two ways:
1. They say that doubt is normal but as long as you keep the faith, god will begin to reveal himself to you. There are certain variations of this but it's all the same basic premise. They tell you to attend church more and to pray more. In return, this exposes you to more people who all have their own doubts but who are all collectively telling one another "I talk to magic man!" Meanwhile, you're mumbling prayers with this desire to fit in like the other people, and the next thing you know, you're telling everyone else about your experience with god because you've looked for any connection wherever and whenever possible - no matter how common or ridiculous.
2. Doubt is seen as something evil. Religious leaders often label doubt side-by-side with the devil as though doubt is a byproduct of some mythical beast with horns and a pitchfork. Thus, they insist to you and to their congregation that doubting is something to be ashamed of and something that actually has evil at its roots. One's doubts about god suddenly become taboo and can become as socially unacceptable as a gay, transexual black person heading to the Republican National Convention to speak about their love for Obamacare.
So, those who find themselves atheists because they find themselves at odds with the church are probably a small segment of those who actually have doubts and express them. Often enough, they find that they're going to a particular church because that's where their family went or that's what they were brought up with. As some people get exposed to different ideas, different cultural values, or whatever the case may be, many come to the realization that the only reason they're going to the church is for the social acceptance, the tom-foolery of people expressing their belief that they all believe in the same thing, and the realize this and finally reject it.
Churches do not thrive on people sharing their doubts about their beliefs. Imagine if every Sunday the local pastor or preacher or priest invited all those who had doubts to stand up in front of the congregation to profess those doubts! Churches and religious beliefs thrive on people not sharing their doubts. It doesn't take much to see through that and, thus, I expect many atheists with church experience were able to see through the transparency and ridiculous nature of closed-mindedness that many church's offer.
Just because someone is at church does not mean they are Christian. Even one can attend church all their life but still not have Christ in them.
The biggest reason I go to church is to Worship God, serving and hear God word. Yet with work the biggest reason I go is I need money.
Which is not apropos to Trout's point at all. Nor does it address, in any way I can see, the topic of this thread.
Putting this together with your prior post, I'm guessing that you think (1) people who speak of hypocrisy in the church are thin-skinned whiners and (2) don't approach church with the proper motives anyway. This in no way addresses the topic, either. If the church has a burden for souls, that should include whiners and the misguided, too, and it should pain you that you're not getting your message across in such a fashion as to transform your community and ultimately the world. I would love to see the church take responsibility for effective communication of an actual value proposition that people can get on board with, instead of complaining (often in a thin-skinned, whiny fashion) that people just don't want the right things.
Two thousand years of this, and what have you got to show for it? How much have you reduced human suffering? Why, by now, aren't there people lined up around the block outside your church to get some of whatever it is that you've got? If they aren't, why don't you see that as an indictment rather than another excuse to be dismissive ("narrow is the gate that leads to heaven, wide the gate that leads to destruction", etc).
Most people mean well and try their best to do well. Most really want to believe in something greater than themselves. They are yours to lose. And lose them you will if you keep puffing yourself up with how spiritual and worshipful you are, and how carnal and ungrateful "they" are.
Its common enough, but far from the only reason. My own apostasy had little to do with what I experienced in church, and everything to do with what I experienced in life itself.
Please explain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Be careful what you ask your brother to do, he might actually do it. And he might actually find that Jesus is as much of a hypocrite as his fellow believers. Then you will be reduced to reading him the "footprints in the sand" poem to explain why trusting Jesus with your needs is the same as trusting to random happenstance, but that's okay because Jesus never leaves you, even when he does. And why answered prayer is indistinguishable from random happenstance, too.
Or we might just end up talking about why people are hypocrites and how people have continually fallen short of the glory of the Lord.
A lot of people, if not most or all people, require confirmation of their opinions and beliefs from others. It's hard to be a liberal in a red state because the people around you don't feel the same as you and have different opinions about issues you feel important. Going to church with doubts is really no different. Churches and religious leaders often approach doubt about one's belief in one of two ways:
1. They say that doubt is normal but as long as you keep the faith, god will begin to reveal himself to you. There are certain variations of this but it's all the same basic premise. They tell you to attend church more and to pray more. In return, this exposes you to more people who all have their own doubts but who are all collectively telling one another "I talk to magic man!" Meanwhile, you're mumbling prayers with this desire to fit in like the other people, and the next thing you know, you're telling everyone else about your experience with god because you've looked for any connection wherever and whenever possible - no matter how common or ridiculous.
2. Doubt is seen as something evil. Religious leaders often label doubt side-by-side with the devil as though doubt is a byproduct of some mythical beast with horns and a pitchfork. Thus, they insist to you and to their congregation that doubting is something to be ashamed of and something that actually has evil at its roots. One's doubts about god suddenly become taboo and can become as socially unacceptable as a gay, transexual black person heading to the Republican National Convention to speak about their love for Obamacare.
So, those who find themselves atheists because they find themselves at odds with the church are probably a small segment of those who actually have doubts and express them. Often enough, they find that they're going to a particular church because that's where their family went or that's what they were brought up with. As some people get exposed to different ideas, different cultural values, or whatever the case may be, many come to the realization that the only reason they're going to the church is for the social acceptance, the tom-foolery of people expressing their belief that they all believe in the same thing, and the realize this and finally reject it.
Churches do not thrive on people sharing their doubts about their beliefs. Imagine if every Sunday the local pastor or preacher or priest invited all those who had doubts to stand up in front of the congregation to profess those doubts! Churches and religious beliefs thrive on people not sharing their doubts. It doesn't take much to see through that and, thus, I expect many atheists with church experience were able to see through the transparency and ridiculous nature of closed-mindedness that many church's offer.
I will say this much about everything you said. There aren't a lot of churches that allow people to question certain teachings. With a good teacher and an open heart those doubts can fortifies one faith when they gain greater understanding but it is not often handle the way it should be.
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