Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Why would personal believe have anything to do with any of it? What you believe or what anyone else believes has absolutely nothing to do with it to me, that's just personal mind chatter. If you share it then you will get a response as you would if you shared your favorite flavor of ice cream. Some will say, aw, me too! I love that flavor. Some will say, gross, I hate it. Hopefully nobody mocks your choice of ice cream but it could happen, especially if it's a flavor like Sardine cream. Eww. See, I would say ewww if you shared that flavor.
Try not to be insulted by response, after all you've put your personal beliefs out there. I assume there is a reason. Everyone has their personal beliefs, that is how it should be, everyone has the right to share them. But, when groups of others are killed because they either agree or disagree with a belief there's a problem and humanity needs to address it. That's the only issue here. Should we allow others to be harmed because of their personal beliefs? Or should we allow others to harm people based on their personal beliefs? Or grander yet, should we allow hurting anyone, for any reason? The Germans were persuaded to fear a take over from the Jewish race. Get them before they get us. Seems simple, yet it's anything but.
That's simply not Gods territory, a God cannot do anything, you imagine the God ask you to endure humanities faults and gives you a reward in the end and your reward cannot be proven, only believed by you personally. It's not any different than a personal belief that causes harmful action, like the belief that Jews are a race that will take us over, or we believe Americans are evil so we will fly some planes into buildings and appease God. Sometimes they are one in the same, such as the act of hating gays for being gay, slavery, killing Indians for lack of Godliness or wanting their land.
Action to stop harm needs to come from humanity, arguing if God is responsible or not is silly, it's just a personal "what if", and it's as good as a "guess." It can't be true for me because I don't believe in a God for instance. But, in our future for survival purposes we need to address humanity, not a God.
The question is if a majority of people holds "like" belief does it make it true? As seen in many areas of the world it seems it does make it the reality of those who hold it. This is when personal belief can get scary for those in the minority of thought. Humanity needs to protect the right to hold different beliefs, and keeping them personal and restrict the amount of respect they carry. If we don't do this we will continue to see said beliefs turn into a reality, and use it as an excuse to inflict harm on others. When does it stop? When should humanity as a whole stop respecting it and try to stop this practice?
The Holocaust was horrible, but it's repeating itself continuously around the world. The bigger picture needs to be addressed. When do beliefs encroach on humanity and the rights to human life without persecution?
This needs to happen in the backyard, it needs to be adopted by everyone if we care to rid the world of harm based on personal belief. I believe humanity needs laws so that peace can ensue, not a God that promises a golden afterlife if we just put up with it. After all, my beliefs do differ from yours. But, I do think I can work with you if humanity, not religious beliefs, are the topic. I'm sure we share the desire to live without harm done, regardless of what it's in the name of.
We can start small, and hopefully it will grow. Be kind, not blind. Let's get rid of the "ignore" buttons.
I've just seen some extremely self-righteous, bigoted non-believers (in God, religion, whatever) that are very condescending to believers. That's all. I'm being honest - I've seen it here, elsewhere on the internet, and IRL. I didn't want to get that treatment. I am college educated - went to a VERY liberal NYC school. I still choose to believe, and all I asked is that my opinion is also respected and not mocked because, again, I've seen it happen. It was my first time posting on the Religion and Spirituality forum and I didn't know how people react to opinions here, and I wasn't about to do a search to see. So I simply asked for my opinion to be taken seriously and respected. I ask this a lot on all forums here. People tend to forget to respect others online, in any type of conversation (the anonymity breeds rudeness IMO), and can get quite condescending and rude about any topic, really, and I would appreciate that NOT happening… preferably ever, but especially when talking about a sensitive topic like religion/God/whatever. I always say this - you can't prove God does exist, but you also can't prove he doesn't. So who's right? Which side is smarter? We don't know. So let's all respect one another. That's all I was saying. Sounds rather similar to what you're saying. There's no use arguing over personal beliefs and things you can't actually prove or disprove.
Was the Holocaust religious, other than the anti-Semitism? I don't recall Hitler ever doing what he did in the name of God… it was about creating a superior race, so genetics more than anything IMO. He didn't JUST kill Jews. He killed "non-desirables" like gypsies, the mentally or physically handicapped, and many Christians as well, among other groups. People TODAY ask why God didn't stop it, but I don't believe God was an issue at the time. I don't believe God was a motivation for the Nazis/Hitler to do all they did. Jews are disliked not just as a religion, but as an ethnicity. Many Jewish people identity as being ethnically Jewish - I've known many throughout my life who, when I ask what they are, say Jewish while I'd say Italian, Irish, and German. The Holocaust was a genocide - not any type of holy war. I agree that people need to stop taking a religion to the point of extremism, but you have to remember those people interpret the religion beyond the way any normal person does, way beyond the way it was intended to be interpreted. They make things up. It's no different than those who contrive their own twisted view of a Constitutional Amendment or right. You can twist anything you want if it's written even slightly vaguely. Extremists in any religion are IMO mentally ill. The extremists do not affiliate with the "normal" ones of any religion. Why take away religion because of the crazies? Let's take care of the crazies. There are far more peaceful religious people than violent ones out there. Far more.
I agree that arguing whether or not God is responsible for things is silly. But I believe that it is a way for non-believers to smugly question those who believe, to be honest. "Well if God is sooo great then why did he let the Holocaust happen? 9/11? Paris attacks? Then why are people starving, dying everyday?" You can go on and on.
I've just seen some extremely self-righteous, bigoted non-believers (in God, religion, whatever) that are very condescending to believers. That's all. I'm being honest - I've seen it here, elsewhere on the internet, and IRL. I didn't want to get that treatment. I am college educated - went to a VERY liberal NYC school. I still choose to believe, and all I asked is that my opinion is also respected and not mocked because, again, I've seen it happen. It was my first time posting on the Religion and Spirituality forum and I didn't know how people react to opinions here, and I wasn't about to do a search to see. So I simply asked for my opinion to be taken seriously and respected. I ask this a lot on all forums here. People tend to forget to respect others online, in any type of conversation (the anonymity breeds rudeness IMO), and can get quite condescending and rude about any topic, really, and I would appreciate that NOT happening… preferably ever, but especially when talking about a sensitive topic like religion/God/whatever. I always say this - you can't prove God does exist, but you also can't prove he doesn't. So who's right? Which side is smarter? We don't know. So let's all respect one another. That's all I was saying. Sounds rather similar to what you're saying. There's no use arguing over personal beliefs and things you can't actually prove or disprove.
Was the Holocaust religious, other than the anti-Semitism? I don't recall Hitler ever doing what he did in the name of God… it was about creating a superior race, so genetics more than anything IMO. He didn't JUST kill Jews. He killed "non-desirables" like gypsies, the mentally or physically handicapped, and many Christians as well, among other groups. People TODAY ask why God didn't stop it, but I don't believe God was an issue at the time. I don't believe God was a motivation for the Nazis/Hitler to do all they did. Jews are disliked not just as a religion, but as an ethnicity. Many Jewish people identity as being ethnically Jewish - I've known many throughout my life who, when I ask what they are, say Jewish while I'd say Italian, Irish, and German. The Holocaust was a genocide - not any type of holy war. I agree that people need to stop taking a religion to the point of extremism, but you have to remember those people interpret the religion beyond the way any normal person does, way beyond the way it was intended to be interpreted. They make things up. It's no different than those who contrive their own twisted view of a Constitutional Amendment or right. You can twist anything you want if it's written even slightly vaguely. Extremists in any religion are IMO mentally ill. The extremists do not affiliate with the "normal" ones of any religion. Why take away religion because of the crazies? Let's take care of the crazies. There are far more peaceful religious people than violent ones out there. Far more.
I agree that arguing whether or not God is responsible for things is silly. But I believe that it is a way for non-believers to smugly question those who believe, to be honest. "Well if God is sooo great then why did he let the Holocaust happen? 9/11? Paris attacks? Then why are people starving, dying everyday?" You can go on and on.
Seems to be a legitimate question, does it not? Equating the inability to prove God with the inability to disprove God simply will not fly, as would be considered the inabilities to prove or disprove the existence of the Loch Ness Monster. Though the nonexistence of either cannot be proven to certainty, a high degree of probability can be proven for the nonexistence of both. We should certainly respect each other but that doesn't mean we should be expected to respect every belief. Some beliefs are so heinous or unreasonable that ridicule and satire are legitimate means of discourse. It's the old cliche' of "If you can't stand the heat..."
You can't be racist against Jews because Judaism is not a race.
Try telling that to the Anti-Defamation League. While I don't think they technically regard anti-Semitism as racism (more exactly, I think they term it "bigotry" or "prejudice"), they align themselves and cooperate with anti-racist organizations. Jews are not a race, genetically, it's true. But the issues they face are not in practice really different from the racism that others deal with. Either way it's a method of otherizing and marginalizing.
Regardless -- I think we're drifting away from what AmaznJohn's point, which is that god plays favorites and while that may not constitute an expression of racism, it certainly constitutes favoritism and prejudice to promote one group over another (or over all others) whether it's because of race / ethnicity ... or religion. While it is impolitic to point it out, and I don't have an anti-Semitic bone in my body, it IS convenient that the Torah just happens to identify its own audience / constituency as god's chosen people and asserts that god has special blessings for those that align themselves with that, and curses for those who don't. God's chosen people don't deserve bigotry, hatred or prejudice, but they deserve it no more nor less than anyone else, either. The very fact that the Torah argues otherwise belies its very human authorship and agenda.
Of course with all the special pleading going on for god, it scarcely matters. He gets to play favorites, or indeed, as some have asserted elsewhere on this forum, do evil, that good may come. Because he's god. Some things are a sin for humans to do, but not for god. God transcends his own morality. Quite a gig!
Of course with all the special pleading going on for god, it scarcely matters. He gets to play favorites, or indeed, as some have asserted elsewhere on this forum, do evil, that good may come. Because he's god. Some things are a sin for humans to do, but not for god. God transcends his own morality. Quite a gig!
Good insight. You have a witty way of illustrating things.
Seems to be a legitimate question, does it not? Equating the inability to prove God with the inability to disprove God simply will not fly, as would be considered the inabilities to prove or disprove the existence of the Loch Ness Monster. Though the nonexistence of either cannot be proven to certainty, a high degree of probability can be proven for the nonexistence of both. We should certainly respect each other but that doesn't mean we should be expected to respect every belief. Some beliefs are so heinous or unreasonable that ridicule and satire are legitimate means of discourse. It's the old cliche' of "If you can't stand the heat..."
If you don't respect one's belief, I hope you don't expect respect in return for yours. That's how it works. I can't listen to someone say that believing in something that can neither be proven nor disproven is "heinous or unreasonable." I honestly find that position quite rude.
This is exactly what I was talking about. This is why I avoid this particular topic of discussion, but this particular thread intrigued me. Wish it hadn't.
JerseyGirl, there are other places, like blogs, if all you want is a place to state your beliefs without having anyone comment on them.
I guess you have you discovered that.
If you don't respect one's belief, I hope you don't expect respect in return for yours. That's how it works. I can't listen to someone say that believing in something that can neither be proven nor disproven is "heinous or unreasonable." I honestly find that position quite rude.
This is exactly what I was talking about. This is why I avoid this particular topic of discussion, but this particular thread intrigued me. Wish it hadn't.
I would not expect others to respect my belief if it was unreasonable, dangerous, or heinous, but no one has been able to demonstrate that to me. Some people are placed in asylums or prisons for their beliefs, because they are dangerous to others, whether their beliefs can be disproved or not. Of course I don't advocate that all theists be treated this way, but there are some who we've experienced lately who could fall into these categories. Do you respect the beliefs of the militant Islamist terrorists? Do you respect Nazism or White Supremacy?
Depending upon the attributes of the God in which one claims to believe, I feel I can disprove nearly any God, at least up until the point of absolute certainty. So, in this case the absurdity of belief in these Gods can be demonstrated and therefore placed in the category of unreasonable beliefs.
God does not prefer one people over another people.
I made a covenant with a living Jew before he died, that he and I would stand together as one being, in a special marriage that made a gentile one person with a Jew and we stand together on this. He is no better than me, and I am no better than him, he is just half of what we are together, and this is the plan of God, and a plan for peace. That all the people of the world would come together and defy all races by coming together when a messenger of the covenant would come and legally bind us together as one.
But if the whole world has hated Jews just for keeping the commandments of God and Christianity is responsible for this hate, then as a Christian, I have 2000 years to make up for the misdeeds of my fathers. If My fathers are Constantine and Martin Luther and they went as far as to deem the Jews subhuman and Christianity treated them as such, then where is the justice if I continue in what my fathers have done?
The black of America deserved some sort of retribution, and so do the native Americans, and it is my good opinion that if you are not among the native Americans, and you live south west of the Mississippi, then you should pick up all you own and head across the river. My intention would be to kick every non native American right out of the country, because as an Indian whose fathers walked the trail of tears, I don't want you here if you are not amongst the brethren.
But people are here, and I would be willing to give in a little, so I would move every single gentile who is not among the tribes on the other side of the Mississippi, and they should not trespass on our land again because we deserve retribution, just as the blacks did.
Just as many people deserve to be compensated after they have severely suffered crimes against humanity by the people who committed those atrocities.
It was impossible for Israel to get their land back, but what was done to them was so heinous, and so unbelievable, the whole world decided to give the Jews their land back and the league of nations did this. But the land granted by the league of nations is all gone now, it is gone because the Jews have given up their granted land from the very beginning until there isn't even ten percent of that land left.
Now the United nations wants to divide Jerusalem and we have countries calling for the genocide of Jews, and plans to push the Jews into the great sea.
Our country has given terrorists a stage to speak to an international audience speaking against the Jews, and we go over there to the middle East and help the enemies of the Jewish nation.
As Americans we sat watching a monster go after the people of God and we were hiding all our might in a pearl. Leaders of the world were begging us to help them fight this great evil and we did almost nothing until the pearl was pierced.
Our troops walk into camps where there were 100's of children experimented on, My one regret in all of my life was walking into a holocaust museum and seeing a picture of a group of children that were naked. Those children had their orifices sown shut so that they could not relieve themselves.
It was a sight that has stayed with me, something to horrifying for anyone to see, something that doesn't go away.
America was so shocked at what we had found, we almost did the right thing by granting Israel a homeland after they had been exiled for 2000 years, and who was responsible for their exile other than Christianity?
Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism for 100 years after Jesus died, but after the Jewish war, gentile converts started being persecuted because they looked like Jews.
The gentile converts made a willing conversion back to the same Pagan worship system of Rome, thereby saving their lives, and separating from the Jews. From that time on the separation continued until they were completely divided, and Christianity went in to persecuting them for 2000 years.
My fathers.
And because I would be willing to try and heal their broken hearts, I am racist?
There are still people alive who were in those camps, the world has just a little more time to reach out and touch one of them.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Let's get rid of the "ignore" buttons.
