In the wake of the massacre in France today by [apparent] Muslim militants... (Buddhism, disciple)
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I actually posted that, as I don't want anybodies personal spray to hit my backside. lol
Well, you know where I fall on that spectrum, but I do think pinacle has a point that religion isn't free from societies laws because there are many religions and beliefs.
Whether he personally wishes for one world religion is frankly none of my business and I'd love love love to keep it that way cuz I don't want to know.
Not sure what one world religion even is. because as it stands now the world is so diverse in what we worship. I worship God and believe Jesus is the Christ. I would not impose my beliefs on any one. Just as I stood my ground here to defend Islam a faith I hardly know. But I would not stand by and let discourse run wild because I know who the enemy is and am not blinded by his lies. He walks in all camps and is the beast in the water of the soul. And the beast of the earth will act in his place. In my faith the Holy Spirit guides me.
Note how no one came after you with guns and bombs to make you shut up. If you can't see the difference, then you're not even worth talking to.
What a steaming load of crap. Did the atheists commit a crime? No? Then they were INNOCENT. Duh!
France has their own document outlining their freedoms called The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen.
Article 11 of this document states, and I quote: The free communication of thoughts and of opinions is one of the most precious rights of man: any citizen thus may speak, write, print freely, save [if it is necessary] to respond to the abuse of this liberty, in the cases determined by the law.
Those "obnoxious" atheists were well within their rights to publish any cartoon they pleased so long as they were not breaking any laws. If those terrorist morons didn't like it, too bad. They had no right to murder people for practicing their own Article 11 freedoms.
What you seem to advocate is that terrorists are allowed to respond to a cartoon with violence. Well, where does THAT crap stop? Perhaps you haven't been paying a lot of attention to what goes on in the Middle East, but there are bombs going off practically every day killing innocent civilians just trying to make a life for themselves. One of the reasons for this is because they adopted the same kind of life you are defending - that giving offense is grounds for murder.
I wouldn't go anywhere near a world like that - and I doubt many would. Yet it's pretty easy to sit back in your comfy chair knowing your life will not be taken by terrorist gunmen. Yeah, it's super easy to blab about how the atheists brought it upon themselves when the attack happened in a different country - and because atheists (were they even atheists?) were the victims.
Would you be whistling that same off-tune song if your neighbor and his family were murdered by the Klan because he published an article condemning racism? What if a group of thuggish Christians went around murdering gays? Would you sit there and claim that being gay was offensive to these Christians and therefore, they had the right to go around slaughtering anyone they perceived to be gay?
Like I said, it's easy to sit around throwing stones in a glass house when its not your country being held hostage by terrorism, when it's not your rights being denied by threats of violence, when it's not your family, friends, or members of your own faith lying dead on the floor.
I see. So we should treat this incident as a non-event, right?
*yawn* "Oh yeah, in other news, some guys broke into some building and shot a bunch of people. Just a garden variety murder. *yawn* Oh, excuse me. It's a slow news day. Not much happened in France today, and since bad things happened to other people somewhere else, we're not going to say anything more about the *yawn* politically/religiously motivated act of terror."
You know what ticks me off the most? This:
Truly innocent people? TRULY innocent? You need to go back and re-read the bovine excrement you're smearing all over this board. Those people committed no crime and they are as innocent as anyone else who has ever said or written something someone else didn't like. I guess we should all line up to be shot.
"Truly" innocent. Damn, man ...
I'm not going to address your post point by point. You obviously lack the ability to have a reasonable conversation on this issue. Instead I'm going repeat my point of view.
The fundamentalist Muslims who murdered these atheists were wrong. The fact that these atheist's were stepping over the line of decency in their cartoons gives no justification for the actions of the fundamentalist Muslims. I don't think anyone in this thread has said anything different. I certainly haven't.
These cartoonists were both crude and hateful towards all religions and in particular Muslims. Now that is just my opinion after seeing their work on line. If you have only seen the ones that have been republished after the attack you need to google them and see the ones the papers didn't reprint.
I appreciate that satirical cartoons are meant to be shocking in order to jump start a conversation. Many of these cartoons seem to advance no conversation but rather are just intended to be offensive. Again that is my opinion. Others might find a value in them I've missed.
I in no way want laws written that hinders free speech. I don't believe you could stop the offensive garbage without risking free expression. I fully support these atheists right to mock religion including mine. They committed no crime.
Of course stupidity is not a crime. Being obnoxious is also totally legal. But when someone is both willfully obnoxious and stupid they carry some personal responsibility for the consequences. Society can't provide enough security to protect the obnoxious and the stupid. If you offend someone pointedly and repeatedly sometimes your going to end up with a bloody nose. That might be wrong but, it is reality.
Now I'm ok with offending someone if it is something that should be said. My problem with these atheists is I can't find any value in their cartoons. They don't start a conversation. They don't express uncomfortable truths. Sure the odd one makes a statement. Most seem to just express contempt. I can't see such speech to be worth dying over. What a foolish waste of a life!
Recognizing that these fundamentalist Muslims are evil doesn't necessitate their victims being seen as good or pure or smart. I suppose being a martyr for free speech doesn't make you a martyr for good speech.
Now I'm ok with offending someone if it is something that should be said. My problem with these atheists is I can't find any value in their cartoons. They don't start a conversation. They don't express uncomfortable truths. Sure the odd one makes a statement. Most seem to just express contempt. I can't see such speech to be worth dying over. What a foolish waste of a life!
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You don't make the rules though, Thank God. Just because you may not think something should be said and just because you may not find any value does not mean others agree with you.
George Carlin was one of my favorite comedians. He used to make fun of religion often, and was not nice about it either. I am sure he offended many, does that mean if someone decided to kill him he would have deserved it?
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
it has been claimed that there were shouts of avenging Muhammad.
"An amateur video of the assailants’ subsequent gunfight with the police, showed the men shouting, “We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad. We have killed Charlie Hebdo!”
My question is, if this was in Muhammad's time, would he have condoned this behavior by those claiming to be a part of his faith?
I just think if Islam is going to Speak of Jesus in the Koran. It should at least here His Disciples words. And see Jesus for who he is.
Case in point: how is this not considered more insulting than a cartoon from satarists? At least everyone understands that a cartoon is for the baser human communication needs and is most times just fun hyperbole, not actual belief.
Trust me pinacled, If the ancient Jews had used the same line to the early Christians, as in "If you are going to believe in G-d Most High, then you should at least hear his Priests words, and see G-d for who he really is," the Christians would have winced and shook their heads too.
Guy gets 10 years, a huge fine, and 1,000 lashes for insulting Islam on his blog. This is why I get furious when people even hint at limiting freedom of expression.
Case in point: how is this not considered more insulting than a cartoon from satarists? At least everyone understands that a cartoon is for the baser human communication needs and is most times just fun hyperbole, not actual belief.
Trust me pinacled, If the ancient Jews had used the same line to the early Christians, as in "If you are going to believe in G-d Most High, then you should at least hear his Priests words, and see G-d for who he really is," the Christians would have winced and shook their heads too.
This world was never about Truth or lies. There are only hard facts. Despite that., everyone who exist in this world mistakenly believes that only facts that are favorable to them are truths. They know no other way to live. But for the powerless who make up most of the world, facts that act against them are the only truths. Do you know all the facts?
Thought you might like this reference.
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