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Old 01-22-2015, 07:26 PM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
No...I'm not a Lutheran. But they are correct in regards to God's sovereignty. He made us. He gets to decide right and wrong. Again...just as a potter gets to decide the clay's fate. (Romans 9).
No . . . God doesn't get to do anything, Vizio . . . tyrants, dictators and megalomaniacs do . . . NOT God. God IS agape love and that places restrictions on what would be acceptable to Him. Our ignorant primitive ancestors lived under tyrants who DID do whatever they wanted so the concept had human roots . . . NOT Divine. It has been just one of the many corruptions of Christ's Gospel and teachings that the misbegotten idea of an inerrant and infallible Bible has wrought! Those who preach it bear a heavy burden. Those who refuse to test everything against the Spirit of agape love do not know God or Jesus . . . and that is a sad situation indeed.
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:02 PM
 
3,402 posts, read 2,779,219 times
Reputation: 1325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I have yet to see anyone that can give me a reasonable answer to my argument. God decides what is moral and immoral, as he created the universe. In the same way, the clay cannot complain to the potter in regards to what he did with it.
This argument never made much sense to me, because it ends up destroying everything you believe in.

Let me walk you though this.

Good and evil, moral and immoral is defined by God. Whatever God says is good, is so, whatever he says is evil is so.

So saying that God is good is at best a tautology. There is no external measure to evaluate if God is good, because he defines it.

So God can be defined as good no matter what he does. Which means that Gods actions cannot be limited, even by his own character. God can destroy, torture, and lie and still be good.

Which means that there is no reason to trust God or the Bible. We must rely on the goodness of God to believe he would not intentionally deceive or mislead us but we have shown in the step above that we cannot eliminate the possibility that God is intentionally deceiving us. Why should we place our faith and trust in a being that we have no reason to believe pays any attention to us, or if he does is not entirely malevolent? God being "good" in the sense you use tells us virtually nothing about him, other than perhaps that he does not place much if any value on us ( being nothing but disposable, unremarkable mud to him), and certainly does not give us any reason to believe that he means us anything but harm...

-NoCapo
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:38 PM
 
Location: DMV
10,125 posts, read 13,950,635 times
Reputation: 3222
I'm confused by the argument that some of you are making against Vizio. You are upset that you deem people to be violent in the Old Testament, but then who gave them that authority to do those things? Does anybody understand the context of why those things were done? They were taking their orders from the author of morality. The purpose isn't to focus on law, but it's to focus on God. A relationship with God is not about following the law, it's about obedience. If you question God, then you are questioning his authority and you are putting yourself or something or someone else above him. If you do not believe in God then you won't follow him, but if you follow him, and he is speaking to you, why would you question something that he has demanded you to do, if you believe him?
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:55 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,199,480 times
Reputation: 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans View Post
I'm confused by the argument that some of you are making against Vizio. You are upset that you deem people to be violent in the Old Testament, but then who gave them that authority to do those things? Does anybody understand the context of why those things were done?
Well we shall be all ears to hear exactly what the context is - Oh nevermind we understand context to fundies to mean "the way 'I' interpret scripture"
Quote:
They were taking their orders from the author of morality. The purpose isn't to focus on law, but it's to focus on God. A relationship with God is not about following the law, it's about obedience.
I AM the alpha and Omega, I change not - something to that effect. Well how did your war-god evolve? From a literal reading of the bible, it is the same megalomaniac in both testaments. It is a rgetorical question. We know that the bible is the mere uninspired ramblings of what we term goat herders - a put down of unenlightened people who knew no better.
Quote:
If you question God, then you are questioning his authority and you are putting yourself or something or someone else above him.
Come let us reason together - a text direct out of your babble. There is no reason not to question the morality of your bible god
Quote:
If you do not believe in God then you won't follow him, but if you follow him, and he is speaking to you, why would you question something that he has demanded you to do, if you believe him?
You do not follow the bible god, you follow a god of your own invention just like all other believers do.

You folk claim the bible is the inspired, inerrant word of gawd yet when we hold it up like a mirror to your beliefs, you claim context or free-will or some other lame excuse. Everything you theists do is based on circular reasoning.

Ergo, your god and the god of all theists are mere fabrications of their own psyche and at best an extension of their own ego/personality.

When god hates everything you hate, you can be certain your god is created in your own image ~ Anne Lamott. (My version of the actual quote)
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:08 PM
 
Location: DMV
10,125 posts, read 13,950,635 times
Reputation: 3222
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
You folk claim the bible is the inspired, inerrant word of gawd yet when we hold it up like a mirror to your beliefs, you claim context or free-will or some other lame excuse. Everything you theists do is based on circular reasoning.
I know it's hard to understand. It takes work, but you don't have to give up so easily.
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:19 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,199,480 times
Reputation: 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans View Post
I know it's hard to understand. It takes work, but you don't have to give up so easily.
It is very easy to understand when one stops partaking of the Koolaide, it is fiction
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:02 PM
 
Location: USA
18,461 posts, read 9,106,258 times
Reputation: 8495
Vizio:

According to the Bible, your God actually has a higher body count than Satan does. While this Satan guy seems like a shady character, he isn't anywhere near as dangerous as your God.

But it's all good because your God created everything, right? It can all be written off as collateral damage. He is dictator of the universe. Submit to him or be tortured by him forever!

God is love!
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,091,717 times
Reputation: 14069
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans View Post
...snip... The purpose isn't to focus on law, but it's to focus on God. A relationship with God is not about following the law, it's about obedience...snip...
Obedience to what?

To what a bunch of anonymous guys thousands of years ago who purported to be channeling God said? Or rather, the hundreds of editors of those dozens of anonymous mediums who, over the centuries, decided God said this n' that or Jesus said this n' that or it doesn't matter they're the same or it does matter they're not?

Depending on which version/translation/edition/revised or not you're quoting "God" from....

God is in no book or God is in every book.

Quote:
If you question God, then you are questioning his authority and you are putting yourself or something or someone else above him. If you do not believe in God then you won't follow him, but if you follow him, and he is speaking to you, why would you question something that he has demanded you to do, if you believe him?
No, I'm questioning the anonymous dudes who signed apostle's names to pieces of parchment which were then pastiched together by dozens of editors/copywriters/translaters over centuries in order to advance a particular belief system.

I never question God. That would be like questioning the wind or the tides or the spring song of tree frogs.
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Old 01-22-2015, 11:02 PM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7819
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No . . . God doesn't get to do anything, Vizio . . . tyrants, dictators and megalomaniacs do . . . NOT God. God IS agape love and that places restrictions on what would be acceptable to Him. Our ignorant primitive ancestors lived under tyrants who DID do whatever they wanted so the concept had human roots . . . NOT Divine. It has been just one of the many corruptions of Christ's Gospel and teachings that the misbegotten idea of an inerrant and infallible Bible has wrought! Those who preach it bear a heavy burden. Those who refuse to test everything against the Spirit of agape love do not know God or Jesus . . . and that is a sad situation indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Well we shall be all ears to hear exactly what the context is - Oh nevermind we understand context to fundies to mean "the way 'I' interpret scripture"
I AM the alpha and Omega, I change not - something to that effect. Well how did your war-god evolve? From a literal reading of the bible, it is the same megalomaniac in both testaments. It is a rgetorical question. We know that the bible is the mere uninspired ramblings of what we term goat herders - a put down of unenlightened people who knew no better.
Come let us reason together - a text direct out of your babble. There is no reason not to question the morality of your bible god
You do not follow the bible god, you follow a god of your own invention just like all other believers do.

You folk claim the bible is the inspired, inerrant word of gawd yet when we hold it up like a mirror to your beliefs, you claim context or free-will or some other lame excuse. Everything you theists do is based on circular reasoning.
Ergo, your god and the god of all theists are mere fabrications of their own psyche and at best an extension of their own ego/personality.
When god hates everything you hate, you can be certain your god is created in your own image ~ Anne Lamott. (My version of the actual quote)
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans View Post
I know it's hard to understand. It takes work, but you don't have to give up so easily.
It is not hard to understand. It is easy . . . but completely illogical and irrational. It only makes sense to a lunatic or a fool. God exists. Therefore Good and Evil exist. Neither one is arbitrary or capricious. Good is ALWAYS good. Evil is ALWAYS evil. God is ALWAYS God. Nothing is at the whim or caprice of anything . . . NOT even God. God IS agape love. Anything compatible with agape love is Good regardless WHO does it. Anything incompatible with agape love is Evil regardless WHO does it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
It is very easy to understand when one stops partaking of the Koolaide, it is fiction
It is not fiction, Seeker . . . but you are right about the Kool-Aid in the inerrant infallible Bible nonsense.
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Old 01-23-2015, 06:54 AM
 
Location: DMV
10,125 posts, read 13,950,635 times
Reputation: 3222
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
It is very easy to understand when one stops partaking of the Koolaide, it is fiction
I don't usually drink anything when I go to church.
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