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There is no evidence for that. By your own words, you are a fraud.
We have plenty of evidence for the existence of the universe. We can observe it with telescopes. The same cannot be said for a "creator." What does the creator look like? Where is he or she? How much does he or she weigh?
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Except that my bed is a platform bed. There is no "under the bed". Even so, if it wasn't, I could disprove it by looking under, waving my hand under it, etc. I have lots of evidence that there would not be one.
The invisible monster is also massless. He can live everywhere, even inside a platform bed. And he is always watching you. He also told me that if you don't give him 10% of your income for life, something terrible might happen to you after you die.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
But you have no evidence that the universe either always existed, or that it came into being without a creator.
The universe exists. Since we can't observe a creator anywhere, it's logical to say that the universe has no creator. If there is a creator, we should be able to see him / her / it.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
The existence of the universe proves that it was caused.
How so? Please explain.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
You can choose to ignore that evidence if you wish. But to say there is no evidence is a false statement. And by your words, you are a fraud.
Personal incredulity is not the same thing as evidence. Just because you think the universe can't exist without a creator doesn't mean it's impossible. Why do you think the creator does not need a creator? You clearly have a double standard.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Really? You're the one that started the thread spouting off nonsensical statements painting the clergy of several major religions with a rather broad brush. It's up to you to back up your statements, lest you be condemned by your own words.
I am not the one selling something. You are. Since I'm not selling a creator or an afterlife, I don't need to provide evidence for those things. It is up to the salesman to give evidence for the things he is selling.
So far you have given no evidence for a creator or an afterlife. You've merely attempted to shift the burden of proof onto the skeptic.
My question for anyone reading this: if someone came to your front door trying to sell you an invisible vacuum cleaner, would you give him the money?
I'm reminded of my favorite episode of Rod Serling's Night Gallery. A hippie-type guy dies in a car accident and finds himself in a cozy living room. He hears Lawrence Welk-type music and it's coming from a record player that he can't stop from playing. In the corner is a boring couple showing slides of their trip to Hawaii. He can't get them to shut up. He can't open the door of the room and get out. He ends up banging on the walls demanding to be let out.
Suddenly Satan appears to him, chortling. He informs the man that he is in hell and he's not going anywhere. "Isn't it strange," he says, "that there is a room exactly like this one in heaven?" Bwuh-ha-ha-ha!
I remember that one. Besides the slide show couple there were was an old couple who were farmers.
I remember the hippie guy asking them what they thought about the Beatles, and of course they start talking about how bad the Beetles were on the farm.
Then the hippie guy says, "no, I mean the group." To which the old couple starts talking about who in the farm family had "the croup".
We have plenty of evidence for the existence of the universe. We can observe it with telescopes. The same cannot be said for a "creator." What does the creator look like? Where is he or she? How much does he or she weigh?
Hah. Yay...you're clever. I'm asking you for evidence that the universe either didn't have a beginning, or that it somehow began without a creator.
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The invisible monster is also massless. He can live everywhere, even inside a platform bed. And he is always watching you. He also told me that if you don't give him 10% of your income for life, something terrible might happen to you after you die.
Sorry. Based on what I know of the universe, I do not believe in such a monster.
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The universe exists. Since we can't observe a creator anywhere, it's logical to say that the universe has no creator. If there is a creator, we should be able to see him / her / it.
How so? Please explain.
Except that almost universally the universe is believed to have had a beginning. Most believe it started with a Big Bang. Logically, it had to have a beginning, and was created by a personal creator.
It's quite simple. Nothing exists that wasn't caused to exist. It's another almost universally accepted thing. If you choose to believe in something else...I'd like to see your evidence for it.
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Personal incredulity is not the same thing as evidence. Just because you think the universe can't exist without a creator doesn't mean it's impossible. Why do you think the creator does not need a creator? You clearly have a double standard.
No...you judged yourself to be a fraud. You said that if one tries to sell a concept that there is no evidence for, they are a fraud. I'm sorry...but these are your own words.
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I am not the one selling something. You are. Since I'm not selling a creator or an afterlife, I don't need to provide evidence for those things. It is up to the salesman to give evidence for the things he is selling.
Really? You started this silly thread suggesting that there is no God. You seem to have something to sell.
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So far you have given no evidence for a creator or an afterlife. You've merely attempted to shift the burden of proof onto the skeptic.
I've given you exhibit A: The universe. Until you can explain HOW something exists without a creator, the point is made. You, in your own words, are a fraud if you try to convince me of something else while not providing evidence.
Here's the problem with believing in an afterlife: logically, it could just as easily be Your Worst Nightmare as it could be The Happiest Place Imaginable.
Religions like Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and Islam figured this out a long time ago. First, lure people into the religion with the idea of Heaven. Then, once they believe in an afterlife with all of their heart, tell them that the afterlife will be eternal torture if they don't obey. Also tell them they will suffer eternal torment if they question the religion in the first place. Then you own them.
It's a great business model. And not only is it legal, it is tax-free and protected by the U.S. constitution. Better yet, no one can question the ethics of the business, since morality comes from the religion alone.
You know, I'm sure there are people who are lured into religions because of the idea of an afterlife. That certainly isn't true in my case. I was raised Mormon, and we don't really believe in the traditional idea of hellfire and damnation (i.e. "Your Worst Nightmare). The way I look at it, if I'm right in what I believe, pretty much everybody is going to end up in "The Happiest Place Imaginable." If I'm wrong, we'll all cease to exist anyway, so there's nothing to worry about.
In short, I like believing in something better in the future, and I don't see how my belief is hurting me or anybody else.
to live as if you believe that there are no consequences for your actions ever is not true atheism but only ex christians attempting to justify a new life style.
Hah. Yay...you're clever. I'm asking you for evidence that the universe either didn't have a beginning, or that it somehow began without a creator.
Sorry. Based on what I know of the universe, I do not believe in such a monster.
Except that almost universally the universe is believed to have had a beginning. Most believe it started with a Big Bang. Logically, it had to have a beginning, and was created by a personal creator.
It's quite simple. Nothing exists that wasn't caused to exist. It's another almost universally accepted thing. If you choose to believe in something else...I'd like to see your evidence for it.
No...you judged yourself to be a fraud. You said that if one tries to sell a concept that there is no evidence for, they are a fraud. I'm sorry...but these are your own words.
Really? You started this silly thread suggesting that there is no God. You seem to have something to sell.
I've given you exhibit A: The universe. Until you can explain HOW something exists without a creator, the point is made. You, in your own words, are a fraud if you try to convince me of something else while not providing evidence.
I have already refuted all of those points. But I will reiterate: your belief that the universe requires a creator (personal or otherwise) is nothing more than a religious dogma. As I already said, personal incredulity is not evidence.
You have zero evidence for the central claims of your brand of Christianity, and you know it. So all you can do is claim that the skeptic doesn't have any "evidence" for their skepticism. You desperately attempt to shift the burden of proof onto the skeptic, instead of providing any real evidence for your claims.
Here's the problem with believing in an afterlife: logically, it could just as easily be Your Worst Nightmare as it could be The Happiest Place Imaginable.
Religions like Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and Islam figured this out a long time ago. First, lure people into the religion with the idea of Heaven. Then, once they believe in an afterlife with all of their heart, tell them that the afterlife will be eternal torture if they don't obey. Also tell them they will suffer eternal torment if they question the religion in the first place. Then you own them.
It's a great business model. And not only is it legal, it is tax-free and protected by the U.S. constitution. Better yet, no one can question the ethics of the business, since morality comes from the religion alone.
You're thinking about this wrong.
If there is no afterlife, you have nothing to worry about. Nobody on earth can threaten you with a bad afterlife. Simple.
If there is an afterlife, you have nothing to worry about. Nobody on earth can threaten you, because any suffering they try to give you, you can shrug off since you're going to the afterlife.
Nobody can own you without your consent. Because there is no monopoly on the truth. The only thing that is wrong is when you get sucked into another person's idea of afterlife, that you let them create for you a Hell on Earth. As you wait for your rewards, you've let them dictate how you live your life.
Question: Why are there so many worldviews, so many religions?
Because Humans have different notions of salvation, of paradise, and of the path to salvation.
Every person has a different priority, and while one person could talk until they're blue in the face as a Fundamental minister, if their target is a Unitarian who has Buddhist undertones, the "fire and brimstone" Hell and the Chick Tracts style Heaven won't pan out.
The better question above is: why are you letting someone else decide what your Heaven should be? There's no problem with the afterlife. You just have a third-hand version of it.
We believe the events as described in the Holy Gospels actually occurred.
Hope this helps.
Are you willing to pay real money for that belief? Why would an all-powerful and all-knowing God need your money?
Think about it.
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