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Old 02-08-2015, 05:30 AM
 
874 posts, read 634,380 times
Reputation: 166

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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
So, if none can understand god or what it is or how it acts or what powers it does or doesn't have or what it's plans are, just what is your understanding or idea of it?
That is hard to do in a few short lines, but I will try to explain. I will expound wherever you want.

The God that I know is a loving, caring God. The "promises" He made me were promises of spirit, not of the flesh. As a child, my dad told me to pray for the right things. My dad never was too explicit. But he said that God knows the desires of my heart. So, I should pray for the needs of my soul, not of my flesh. That the promises from God were for my soul, not my flesh. The interest in me and in my life had to do with my soul, not my flesh. I came to believe that he was right from reading, studying and praying. Personally, I think man looks at the Bible wrong or doesn't look closely enough. The message is spiritual, for the soul, not the flesh. Passages such as "ask and you will receive" are spiritual. Ask for God in your life. Ask to be forgiven. Ask for peace, strength, comfort, guidance, direction - and you will receive. Ask to win the lottery or for a new car and you're probably going to be waiting for a long time. Maybe God sends a dear soul into your life and offers to help with another car, but you are probably not going to get up in the morning a find a car has materialized in the driveway. God often sends dear souls into our lives for all manner of things. But I don't think you can pray material things into existence out of the blue.

Through the years as I practiced these things, I found that God never failed to answer my prayers - as long as I prayed for the right things. I pray for peace, comfort, and strength. I don't pray for worldly things - no matter how much I need them. I pray, sincerely, that His will be done. I do this because I gave my life to God and my life is His to with as he sees fit.

I believe that He put us on this earth to grow spiritually. I believe He promised us everlasting life - but not without a price. I am here on this earth to pay that price - however long it takes. I think to God, I am like a child. I run headlong in a closed sliding glass door, I race out into the street, I stumble and fall down, I do all sorts of stupid things. I think God shakes His head at me a lot of times. Sometimes He stands me back on my feet. Sometimes He kisses the boo-boo. Sometimes He holds me when I cry. Like a child, my spirit is learning. Human parents would like to put their kids in a bubble and not let them out until they are old and gray. But human parents know if they do that, they are creating a child that cannot make it out in the world. Kids have to learn - most of the time, the hard way - sometimes because you take a switch to their behinds. I think that is how humans are to God. We are struggling, but while we struggle, we grow. We must grow into the spiritual self that is deserving of the Kingdom of God and everlasting life. It is a long, hard journey. But it is not as hard as the journey Jesus took for us.

God lives in my heart. I can feel Him and I know Him. He is wise and knowing. He is loving - He's never let me down when I needed strength, or comfort, or spiritual help. He is of the spirit and the more spiritual I become, the closer I become to Him. His plan is that we all achieve the spiritual development that earns us everlasting life with Him.

I've met believers and non-believers on this forum. Sometimes the non-believers are more spiritual than the believers. We all are in different stages of our journey. I don't think "non-belief" precludes anyone from anything. I think that non-belief is a stage somewhere along the way - and not the first stage, either. One non-believer stated that he had left a bad church situation (and left God, too). Which is worse? Walking away from a bad church situation that preyed on your mind and heart or staying and being part of the bad situation? Walking away took courage and conviction and a desire to be better than the bad situation. That sounds like spiritual growth to me. The God I know would have been pleased with that decision. If judgment day comes tomorrow, I believe God will understand.

I've been at this a long time. It has gotten easier for me. But, it wasn't always easier or even easy. I don't see God as mysterious, or confusing or frustrating. I don't see Him in the abstract. I don't see Him hiding behind every tree with a lightening bolt in each hand just waiting to turn me into ash - as I once did. It is all very comfortable and reassuring.

That is how I see God - that and so much more. That is why I say "one's own path". No one can know what another's path is. And no, I can't prove it - not a word of it.
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Old 02-08-2015, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,823 posts, read 13,361,179 times
Reputation: 9821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr View Post
I've met believers and non-believers on this forum. Sometimes the non-believers are more spiritual than the believers. We all are in different stages of our journey. I don't think "non-belief" precludes anyone from anything. I think that non-belief is a stage somewhere along the way - and not the first stage, either.
The concept of spiritual development in phases, of which unbelief is one phase and not necessarily the terminal phase, has been put forth most notably to my mind by M. Scott Peck and, separately and with slightly different classifications, by Ken Wilber. There is also a more formal and psychological theory by James Fowler, based on Gary Leake's somewhat more detailed Faith Development Scale.

Peck's phases:

Phase I: Chaotic / antisocial
Phase II: Formal, institutional, fundamental
Phase III: Skepticism / individualism
Phase IV: Mystical / communal

These phases can last most any length of time, e.g., one can be "stuck" in Phase I or II for most of one's life, or it may last literally days or even hours. In his system I would have spent much of my life in Phase II, be currently "stuck" in Phase III and you would have achieved Phase IV after blowing past Phase III so fast you didn't really recognize it.

It's always a little questionable to produce a system of labeling that works for all comers but there is some validity to this, I think. Each phase is in a sense an abreaction to the one before it. Phase II is a recognition that Phase I is an unsustainable and ultimately harmful and anarchic mindset and it overcompensates with formalism, literalism and authoritarianism. Phase III is a recognition that Phase II is far too limited and does not prove out in the real world or even have predictive power concerning the real world; it seeks to know what is knowable and to accept the unknown and hold it explicitly as such. It elevates the rational and empirical and material above the unseen. Phase IV is supposed to be a recognition that Phase III can't scratch one's existential itches and posits a mature, enlightened spirituality based on non-dualism, egalitarianism, empathy, compassion, community and the like.

The classification and their ordering is a little convenient for someone like Wilber or Peck who are liberal theists and want to fancy themselves as having "arrived". I don't think I necessarily have to become a liberal theist in order to "advance spiritually", I merely have to become more comfortable with subjective and emotional aspects of life and understand that all warm, fuzzy experiences of life aren't automatically bad just because they are ephemeral and hard to quantify -- and, that they aren't inherently to be conceptualized as evocative of some sort of god. In other words subjective transcendence or what some call The Divine or see as an impersonal Deist-style god, is simply an aspect of human experience which we can enjoy without drawing unwarranted mystical conclusions about it. One can very effectively use ritual and symbolism for instance ... as the Unitarians do with their lighting of a chalice before their meetings ... without imposing a particular meaning on it. People can be allowed to find their own meaning (including no meaning at all) in it. I would likely just see it as a psychological "hook" to direct my subconscious in a certain way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr View Post
That is how I see God - that and so much more. That is why I say "one's own path". No one can know what another's path is. And no, I can't prove it - not a word of it.
This is your essential charm, Ella ... you are so secure in your beliefs that you don't need to prove them and therefore can admit that you can't. My late wife was very much like that. She was able to allow my personal journey to unfold differently from her Methodist faith and it did not perturb her. We lost no respect at all for each other, and if anything, that respect increased.

Sadly, this is not the situation that obtains in most human relations. And it is a problem that's not limited to religion. I have seen plenty of dysfunctional dynamics and ego-worship both with and without explicit religious or political ideology as drivers. Our discussions here in this forum are, inherently, about spirituality and metaphysics, but occasionally I think it's wise to remind ourselves that people can be completely divorced from reality in ways that vary independently from their theological or philosophical beliefs -- assuming that they even have any. I am well acquainted with several individuals for example who simply refuse to talk about, discuss, negotiate or resolve issues with others or even attempt to understand others and it's 100% driven by their alignment with a chosen family or professional faction and their willingness to prostitute themselves and throw others under the bus, in order to maintain those alignments at all costs. No religion needed.

This is why I don't feel god is needed to explain human suffering. Humans are perfectly capable of creating their own suffering. The good news is, if they can create it, they can also destroy it.
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:52 AM
 
63,565 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr View Post
That is hard to do in a few short lines, but I will try to explain. I will expound wherever you want.
The God that I know is a loving, caring God. The "promises" He made me were promises of spirit, not of the flesh. As a child, my dad told me to pray for the right things. My dad never was too explicit. But he said that God knows the desires of my heart. So, I should pray for the needs of my soul, not of my flesh. That the promises from God were for my soul, not my flesh. The interest in me and in my life had to do with my soul, not my flesh. I came to believe that he was right from reading, studying and praying. Personally, I think man looks at the Bible wrong or doesn't look closely enough. The message is spiritual, for the soul, not the flesh. Passages such as "ask and you will receive" are spiritual. Ask for God in your life. Ask to be forgiven. Ask for peace, strength, comfort, guidance, direction - and you will receive. Ask to win the lottery or for a new car and you're probably going to be waiting for a long time. Maybe God sends a dear soul into your life and offers to help with another car, but you are probably not going to get up in the morning a find a car has materialized in the driveway. God often sends dear souls into our lives for all manner of things. But I don't think you can pray material things into existence out of the blue.

Through the years as I practiced these things, I found that God never failed to answer my prayers - as long as I prayed for the right things. I pray for peace, comfort, and strength. I don't pray for worldly things - no matter how much I need them. I pray, sincerely, that His will be done. I do this because I gave my life to God and my life is His to with as he sees fit.

I believe that He put us on this earth to grow spiritually. I believe He promised us everlasting life - but not without a price. I am here on this earth to pay that price - however long it takes. I think to God, I am like a child. I run headlong in a closed sliding glass door, I race out into the street, I stumble and fall down, I do all sorts of stupid things. I think God shakes His head at me a lot of times. Sometimes He stands me back on my feet. Sometimes He kisses the boo-boo. Sometimes He holds me when I cry. Like a child, my spirit is learning. Human parents would like to put their kids in a bubble and not let them out until they are old and gray. But human parents know if they do that, they are creating a child that cannot make it out in the world. Kids have to learn - most of the time, the hard way - sometimes because you take a switch to their behinds. I think that is how humans are to God. We are struggling, but while we struggle, we grow. We must grow into the spiritual self that is deserving of the Kingdom of God and everlasting life. It is a long, hard journey. But it is not as hard as the journey Jesus took for us.

God lives in my heart. I can feel Him and I know Him. He is wise and knowing. He is loving - He's never let me down when I needed strength, or comfort, or spiritual help. He is of the spirit and the more spiritual I become, the closer I become to Him. His plan is that we all achieve the spiritual development that earns us everlasting life with Him.

I've met believers and non-believers on this forum. Sometimes the non-believers are more spiritual than the believers. We all are in different stages of our journey. I don't think "non-belief" precludes anyone from anything. I think that non-belief is a stage somewhere along the way - and not the first stage, either. One non-believer stated that he had left a bad church situation (and left God, too). Which is worse? Walking away from a bad church situation that preyed on your mind and heart or staying and being part of the bad situation? Walking away took courage and conviction and a desire to be better than the bad situation. That sounds like spiritual growth to me. The God I know would have been pleased with that decision. If judgment day comes tomorrow, I believe God will understand.

I've been at this a long time. It has gotten easier for me. But, it wasn't always easier or even easy. I don't see God as mysterious, or confusing or frustrating. I don't see Him in the abstract. I don't see Him hiding behind every tree with a lightening bolt in each hand just waiting to turn me into ash - as I once did. It is all very comfortable and reassuring.

That is how I see God - that and so much more. That is why I say "one's own path". No one can know what another's path is. And no, I can't prove it - not a word of it.
This is the most wonderful witness and pragmatic explanation of our relationship to God I have seen in this forum . . . (except for mine.) I know you do not seek and do not need confirmation of your spirituality . . . and that is the way it should be. But your understanding of God and what He cares about is spot on, IMO. It is ALL about the spiritual and not at all about carnal or worldly things. We are usually so wrapped up in our physical bodies and their requirements that we miss the fact that we are NOT our bodies. We are embryo Spirits conceived (gennao) by God and maturing to an eventual rebirth as Spirit upon our physical death.
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Old 02-08-2015, 11:07 AM
 
63,565 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7818
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is the most wonderful witness and pragmatic explanation of our relationship to God I have seen in this forum . . . (except for mine.) I know you do not seek and do not need confirmation of your spirituality . . . and that is the way it should be. But your understanding of God and what He cares about is spot on, IMO. It is ALL about the spiritual and not at all about carnal or worldly things. We are usually so wrapped up in our physical bodies and their requirements that we miss the fact that we are NOT our bodies. We are embryo Spirits conceived (gennao) by God and maturing to an eventual rebirth as Spirit upon our physical death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
The concept of spiritual development in phases, of which unbelief is one phase and not necessarily the terminal phase, has been put forth most notably to my mind by M. Scott Peck and, separately and with slightly different classifications, by Ken Wilber. There is also a more formal and psychological theory by James Fowler, based on Gary Leake's somewhat more detailed Faith Development Scale.

Peck's phases:

Phase I: Chaotic / antisocial
Phase II: Formal, institutional, fundamental
Phase III: Skepticism / individualism
Phase IV: Mystical / communal
<snip for brevity>
This is your essential charm, Ella ... you are so secure in your beliefs that you don't need to prove them and therefore can admit that you can't. My late wife was very much like that. She was able to allow my personal journey to unfold differently from her Methodist faith and it did not perturb her. We lost no respect at all for each other, and if anything, that respect increased.

Sadly, this is not the situation that obtains in most human relations. And it is a problem that's not limited to religion. I have seen plenty of dysfunctional dynamics and ego-worship both with and without explicit religious or political ideology as drivers. Our discussions here in this forum are, inherently, about spirituality and metaphysics, but occasionally I think it's wise to remind ourselves that people can be completely divorced from reality in ways that vary independently from their theological or philosophical beliefs -- assuming that they even have any. I am well acquainted with several individuals for example who simply refuse to talk about, discuss, negotiate or resolve issues with others or even attempt to understand others and it's 100% driven by their alignment with a chosen family or professional faction and their willingness to prostitute themselves and throw others under the bus, in order to maintain those alignments at all costs. No religion needed.

This is why I don't feel god is needed to explain human suffering. Humans are perfectly capable of creating their own suffering. The good news is, if they can create it, they can also destroy it.
I also enjoy your posts mordant . . . and agree with most of them (minus your atheism). The bold here is were we most significantly disagree. Consciousness is required for suffering . . . and our consciousness requires God . . . because that is what God IS. God's consciousness (unified field) is what establishes our reality in my view. We reproduce that consciousness . . . or are supposed to. IMO without consciousness there is no suffering . . . just pain signals and consequences with no separate awareness of them. The line in the movie GI Jane by Master Chief John Urgayle epitomizes this: "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."
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Old 02-08-2015, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,162 posts, read 26,118,923 times
Reputation: 27898
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."

He knows this how?
A little birdie told him?

p.s glad to see all the "IMO"s in your post Mystic
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Old 02-08-2015, 12:32 PM
 
63,565 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7818
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I also enjoy your posts mordant . . . and agree with most of them (minus your atheism). The bold here is were we most significantly disagree. Consciousness is required for suffering . . . and our consciousness requires God . . . because that is what God IS. God's consciousness (unified field) is what establishes our reality in my view. We reproduce that consciousness . . . or are supposed to. IMO without consciousness there is no suffering . . . just pain signals and consequences with no separate awareness of them. The line in the movie GI Jane by Master Chief John Urgayle epitomizes this: "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
He knows this how?
A little birdie told him?
I don't believe that we can absolutely know this . . . but to all appearances it would seem to be consistent with what we know of feeling sorry for oneself.
Quote:
p.s glad to see all the "IMO"s in your post Mystic
I aim to please, old_cold. My certainty really is my own and there is no way to transfer that to anyone else. I can simply explain my views and defend them as best I can.
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Old 02-08-2015, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,823 posts, read 13,361,179 times
Reputation: 9821
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Consciousness is required for suffering . . . and our consciousness requires God . . . because that is what God IS.
I assume you mean that god = consciousness, not that god = suffering. ;-)

I think the point you are making is that suffering is inherent in consciousness and I would simply counter that suffering is no more inherent in consciousness than is, say, wisdom. It takes consciousness of a certain amplitude to make either one possible, but the amount of suffering or wisdom is dependent on things aside from consciousness. Consciousness provides options and capabilities and preferences, which personal freedom of choice then directs.

God = consciousness adds nothing to my understanding of either suffering or consciousness, it simply adds a synonym for consciousness -- a synonym that is erroneous and misleading in my view. Consciousness is a perfectly adequate word for that phenomenon.
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Old 02-08-2015, 01:22 PM
 
63,565 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7818
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I also enjoy your posts mordant . . . and agree with most of them (minus your atheism). The bold here is were we most significantly disagree. Consciousness is required for suffering . . . and our consciousness requires God . . . because that is what God IS. God's consciousness (unified field) is what establishes our reality in my view. We reproduce that consciousness . . . or are supposed to. IMO without consciousness there is no suffering . . . just pain signals and consequences with no separate awareness of them. The line in the movie GI Jane by Master Chief John Urgayle epitomizes this: "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I assume you mean that god = consciousness, not that god = suffering. ;-)
I think the point you are making is that suffering is inherent in consciousness and I would simply counter that suffering is no more inherent in consciousness than is, say, wisdom. It takes consciousness of a certain amplitude to make either one possible, but the amount of suffering or wisdom is dependent on things aside from consciousness. Consciousness provides options and capabilities and preferences, which personal freedom of choice then directs.
God = consciousness adds nothing to my understanding of either suffering or consciousness, it simply adds a synonym for consciousness -- a synonym that is erroneous and misleading in my view. Consciousness is a perfectly adequate word for that phenomenon.
God is not suffering . . . but God IS consciousness . . . the unified field that establishes our reality, IMO. Speaking requires thinking which requires consciousness and as you know God "spoke the world into existence."
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:20 PM
 
874 posts, read 634,380 times
Reputation: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
The concept of spiritual development in phases, of which unbelief is one phase and not necessarily the terminal phase, has been put forth most notably to my mind by M. Scott Peck and, separately and with slightly different classifications, by Ken Wilber. There is also a more formal and psychological theory by James Fowler, based on Gary Leake's somewhat more detailed Faith Development Scale.

Peck's phases:

Phase I: Chaotic / antisocial
Phase II: Formal, institutional, fundamental
Phase III: Skepticism / individualism
Phase IV: Mystical / communal

These phases can last most any length of time, e.g., one can be "stuck" in Phase I or II for most of one's life, or it may last literally days or even hours. In his system I would have spent much of my life in Phase II, be currently "stuck" in Phase III and you would have achieved Phase IV after blowing past Phase III so fast you didn't really recognize it.

It's always a little questionable to produce a system of labeling that works for all comers but there is some validity to this, I think. Each phase is in a sense an abreaction to the one before it. Phase II is a recognition that Phase I is an unsustainable and ultimately harmful and anarchic mindset and it overcompensates with formalism, literalism and authoritarianism. Phase III is a recognition that Phase II is far too limited and does not prove out in the real world or even have predictive power concerning the real world; it seeks to know what is knowable and to accept the unknown and hold it explicitly as such. It elevates the rational and empirical and material above the unseen. Phase IV is supposed to be a recognition that Phase III can't scratch one's existential itches and posits a mature, enlightened spirituality based on non-dualism, egalitarianism, empathy, compassion, community and the like.

The classification and their ordering is a little convenient for someone like Wilber or Peck who are liberal theists and want to fancy themselves as having "arrived". I don't think I necessarily have to become a liberal theist in order to "advance spiritually", I merely have to become more comfortable with subjective and emotional aspects of life and understand that all warm, fuzzy experiences of life aren't automatically bad just because they are ephemeral and hard to quantify -- and, that they aren't inherently to be conceptualized as evocative of some sort of god. In other words subjective transcendence or what some call The Divine or see as an impersonal Deist-style god, is simply an aspect of human experience which we can enjoy without drawing unwarranted mystical conclusions about it. One can very effectively use ritual and symbolism for instance ... as the Unitarians do with their lighting of a chalice before their meetings ... without imposing a particular meaning on it. People can be allowed to find their own meaning (including no meaning at all) in it. I would likely just see it as a psychological "hook" to direct my subconscious in a certain way.
Thank you so much for this information. I never heard of any of these people. Wow. I didn't know anybody out there was thinking along these lines . I've got to get out more!

Yes, I too think it is a little questionable to make such categories, but these seem to be a one-size-fits-all. It is kind of like Elizabeth Kubler Ross' 5 stages of dying (grief, it is often called). She was able to categorize the 5 stages in broad enough terms that they do describe the cycle of emotions. You can be in a cycle for a short time or an extended time. Each stays in a given cycle until he/she is ready to move on. Now that I think about it, that is a lot like spirituality.

I don't think you have to become a liberal theist to grow spiritually. I think "living" causes us to grow spiritually. I do think you have to become "liberal" to make any headway. Most of the non-believers I found on here are liberal. I think you are very liberal. I think moving away from "go forth and hate your neighbor", as many churches teach, is a sign of increased spirituality. I think the point is to reach a "level of higher consciousness". We each do that in our own time on our own path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
This is your essential charm, Ella ... you are so secure in your beliefs that you don't need to prove them and therefore can admit that you can't. My late wife was very much like that. She was able to allow my personal journey to unfold differently from her Methodist faith and it did not perturb her. We lost no respect at all for each other, and if anything, that respect increased.

Sadly, this is not the situation that obtains in most human relations. And it is a problem that's not limited to religion. I have seen plenty of dysfunctional dynamics and ego-worship both with and without explicit religious or political ideology as drivers. Our discussions here in this forum are, inherently, about spirituality and metaphysics, but occasionally I think it's wise to remind ourselves that people can be completely divorced from reality in ways that vary independently from their theological or philosophical beliefs -- assuming that they even have any. I am well acquainted with several individuals for example who simply refuse to talk about, discuss, negotiate or resolve issues with others or even attempt to understand others and it's 100% driven by their alignment with a chosen family or professional faction and their willingness to prostitute themselves and throw others under the bus, in order to maintain those alignments at all costs. No religion needed.

This is why I don't feel god is needed to explain human suffering. Humans are perfectly capable of creating their own suffering. The good news is, if they can create it, they can also destroy it.
Thank you. I appreciate that.

I can't prove anything to anybody else. Maybe that is the whole point of "ones own path". The journey is as individual as each person. If I could prove it, maybe I would interfere with another's path. It is kind of like watching a movie and having someone shout out the ending. It defeats the purpose of seeing the movie for yourself. Maybe it is by design that we can't prove our own journey.

It sounds like your late wife was very enlightened. I had a very dear friend who was at a very different stage than my own. We were able to let each other be where we were in our own respective journeys. I learned from him that that is very important. I think that is more of that "liberal" thing. I am better for having known him. Is there anything better than that that we can say regarding another?

Hopefully humans can find a way to eliminate the suffering. I just hope I don't have to stay here until they do!
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Old 02-08-2015, 06:13 PM
 
874 posts, read 634,380 times
Reputation: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is the most wonderful witness and pragmatic explanation of our relationship to God I have seen in this forum . . . (except for mine.) I know you do not seek and do not need confirmation of your spirituality . . . and that is the way it should be. But your understanding of God and what He cares about is spot on, IMO. It is ALL about the spiritual and not at all about carnal or worldly things. We are usually so wrapped up in our physical bodies and their requirements that we miss the fact that we are NOT our bodies. We are embryo Spirits conceived (gennao) by God and maturing to an eventual rebirth as Spirit upon our physical death.
Thank you Mystic. I really do appreciate those very kind words. (except for yours, of course )

I feel really alone in my beliefs sometimes. I rarely come across people who do understand what I am feeling. It is that "own path" thing. We each feel different things at different times.

I do believe everything is spiritual and that God's concern is with the spiritual. This was a really hard concept when I first stumbled across it decades ago. I'd look in the mirror and see my physical self. That was "me" I was looking at. How could that not be "me"? One winter's day as I was putting on my gloves, I hit me like a bolt of lightening. That glove was like my physical body. The hand inside the glove was like my spiritual being. The fingers of the glove moved and waved and scratched my nose. I took the glove off and laid it down. It did nothing. I commanded the fingers to move and the hand to wave, but it did nothing. I put the glove back on and it became animated, again. It was then I realized that, that image in the mirror wasn't "me" at all. It was just a vessel that housed "me". "Me" was the light shinning from the eyes, the knowledge in my mind, the love in my heart - the spiritual things, the intangible things. That may sound silly, but it was a awesome moment for me. A lot of things fell into place after that.

Yes, I agree about the embryo spirits. Just like human children, our spirits start off as babies and grow into a mature spirit.
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