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Well, prepare to be disappointed because I haven't given it a ton of thought.
But, in my opinion, there is no greater monster in literature than the OT God. And if any being needs to atone for its sins, it's him/her/it.
Mankind was the OT God's creation. If "we" disappointed him, it's because he screwed up. And instead of manning up about his screwup, he decided to massacre everything and everybody except his current favourite toady - Noah.
He is a disgusting tyrant. If anyone needed sins forgiven it was that dude. And if Jesus died to expiate sins, nobody had a bigger or longer list than his old man.
Ok. I can accept that as the way you feel. On it's face, the OT does seem to have been run by a ruthless, mean, cruel God. That is certainly what they taught me in both the Baptist and Methodist church. I certainly CANNOT say, "But you missed the disclaimer in the back of the book". I didn't find a disclaimer, either.
I don't know why one would say that we are not sinners. The Bible tells us that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. We need salvation to enter the kingdom of God. Once we are saved, we are still human - and, as humans, we still fall short of the glory of God. We just have a "pipeline" to God, who wipes our sins "off the record books" - if we go to Him and sincerely ask forgiveness. Being saved does not end sinning, it just gives us a way to be forgiven of our sins. I believe that if one is saved, but one doesn't "actively renew that salvation", one's place in the kingdom of God can be in jeopardy.
But why? What sense does that make? Because I sure can't see any. According to this doctrine, a Hindu man lives the life of a saint - devotes his entire life to feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and paying for medical care for poor children - but burns in hell for all eternity, because he's not a Christian and never asked god's forgiveness, but Charlie Manson spends eternity in heaven as long as he apologizes. As a christian, how can you possible reconcile this? What conceivable sense does this make?
But why? What sense does that make? Because I sure can't see any. According to this doctrine, a Hindu man lives the life of a saint - devotes his entire life to feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and paying for medical care for poor children - but burns in hell for all eternity, because he's not a Christian and never asked god's forgiveness, but Charlie Manson spends eternity in heaven as long as he apologizes. As a christian, how can you possible reconcile this? What conceivable sense does this make?
It doesn't matter what lowly evil sinful fallen humans think about morality. God can do whatever he wants simply because he is God. God is always right and we can never say that anything he does is immoral.
Or at least that's what conservative Christianity teaches. Yes, it's barbaric and dangerous.
But why? What sense does that make? Because I sure can't see any. According to this doctrine, a Hindu man lives the life of a saint - devotes his entire life to feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and paying for medical care for poor children - but burns in hell for all eternity, because he's not a Christian and never asked god's forgiveness, but Charlie Manson spends eternity in heaven as long as he apologizes. As a christian, how can you possible reconcile this? What conceivable sense does this make?
I see your question as being many tined. So, I will try to answer.
The answer I gave was based on Christian philosophy. As I remember the question to be, it referenced why we need salvation. I answered from a Christian philosophy perspective.
I believe that all religions have a higher power which is the same God that I believe in and that they have some sort of "salvation" built into that religion. I believe that there are "godly" people all over the world. Whether they have the equivalent of the Christian Jesus, I do not know. I do believe that if they do not, that Jesus will be revealed unto them when the Christ returns. If Christianity is the universal path for salvation, then all - especially those who believe(d) in God, by whatever name, will be introduced Jesus.
I think your examples above are excellent. I do not think the Hindu man will burn in hell because he is not a Christian. Either his religion has a path to salvation or Jesus will be revealed to him.
I'm not sure Manson has a soul to save. If he does, I don't think a mere apology at the end of his life will get him anything. This is where my beliefs get real complicated and way far afield. That is why I likened this life to hell in an earlier post. It is also why I toy with the idea of reincarnation. It is possible, in my mind, that we are here on this earth until we get it right. The Hindu man you mention has gotten it right and he'll be moving on. Charles Manson has a lot to atone for - a few dozen lifetimes, I imagine.
Last edited by Ella Parr; 02-14-2015 at 02:24 AM..
It doesn't matter what lowly evil sinful fallen humans think about morality. God can do whatever he wants simply because he is God. God is always right and we can never say that anything he does is immoral.
Or at least that's what conservative Christianity teaches. Yes, it's barbaric and dangerous.
It's particularly barbaric when any individual, such as a pope, or organisation, such as a religion claims to represent this God and operate for and on behalf of him/she/ it.
I believe that all religions have a higher power which is the same God that I believe in and that they have some sort of "salvation" built into that religion. I believe that there are "godly" people all over the world. Whether they have the equivalent of the Christian Jesus, I do not know. I do believe that if they do not, that Jesus will be revealed unto them when the Christ returns. If Christianity is the universal path for salvation, then all - especially those who believe(d) in God, by whatever name, will be introduced Jesus.
I think your examples above are excellent. I do not think the Hindu man will burn in hell because he is not a Christian. Either his religion has a path to salvation or Jesus will be revealed to him.
I'm not sure Manson has a soul to save. If he does, I don't think a mere apology at the end of his life will get him anything. This is where my beliefs get real complicated and way far afield. That is why I likened this life to hell in an earlier post. It is also why I toy with the idea of reincarnation. It is possible, in my mind, that we are here on this earth until we get it right. The Hindu man you mention has gotten it right and he'll be moving on. Charles Manson has a lot to atone for - a few dozen lifetimes, I imagine.
Thanks for the comprehensive reply, Ella. I understand and respect your answer, but to me it raises one of the biggest problems I have with christianity - it often seems as though there are as many different versions of christianity as there are christians.
An argument that's often used against religion is that there are so many different religions in the world, most religious people are completely wrong about religion because the different religions are incompatible. You can say the same thing about christianity itself. If you take every christian in the world and ask them to describe their religion, you'll get so many different answers that its impossible to believe they're all talking about the same religion.
It seems clear that most christians must necessarily be completely, incompatibly wrong about the fundamental nature of their religion. So the question then is, how can the religion have any validity at all? You have people of so many very different belief systems, cherrypicking whatever details suit their personal view of religion, and all calling themselves christians, that the term "christian" doesn't even have any meaning anymore. There are so many obvious internal contradictions - fatal contradictions - in christian doctrine that I can't imagine how anyone can take christianity seriously. If it means something different to everyone who practices it, then at some point it doesn't really mean anything at all.
As have I. Or possibly as a way to appease the wrath of people towards God as well as their seeming insatiable need for vengeance against their fellow humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr
Hey Pleroo. I'd be interested in hearing your view points, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude
Well, prepare to be disappointed because I haven't given it a ton of thought.
But, in my opinion, there is no greater monster in literature than the OT God. And if any being needs to atone for its sins, it's him/her/it.
Mankind was the OT God's creation. If "we" disappointed him, it's because he screwed up. And instead of manning up about his screwup, he decided to massacre everything and everybody except his current favourite toady - Noah.
He is a disgusting tyrant. If anyone needed sins forgiven it was that dude. And if Jesus died to expiate sins, nobody had a bigger or longer list than his old man.
Yeah, something along those lines. But also the whole Adam and Eve story, if you're going to take it literally. God set them up to fail, and Paul even concurs that God is responsible for subjecting all of humanity and the rest of creation to the suffering brought about by sin just so God can have mercy on everyone. On its face, at least, you have to admit that sounds like a sh*muck move. So yeah ... A peace offering, a "my bad" acknowledgment by becoming a part of humanity and tasting at least a little of the suffering you forced on them, might go a long way towards reconciliation.
And on top of that, if God is accepting responsibility for the suffering of this world, then God is also saying, "Look, I know you are all pissed off at each other for the horrible things you've done to each other and you want revenge. Well its My fault, see? You can be angry with me and punish Me because I can take it. Stop taking it out on each other."
Just thoughts on the " atonement" that I used to entertain.
I see your question as being many tined. So, I will try to answer.
The answer I gave was based on Christian philosophy. As I remember the question to be, it referenced why we need salvation. I answered from a Christian philosophy perspective.
I believe that all religions have a higher power which is the same God that I believe in and that they have some sort of "salvation" built into that religion. I believe that there are "godly" people all over the world. Whether they have the equivalent of the Christian Jesus, I do not know. I do believe that if they do not, that Jesus will be revealed unto them when the Christ returns. If Christianity is the universal path for salvation, then all - especially those who believe(d) in God, by whatever name, will be introduced Jesus.
I think your examples above are excellent. I do not think the Hindu man will burn in hell because he is not a Christian. Either his religion has a path to salvation or Jesus will be revealed to him.
I'm not sure Manson has a soul to save. If he does, I don't think a mere apology at the end of his life will get him anything. This is where my beliefs get real complicated and way far afield. That is why I likened this life to hell in an earlier post. It is also why I toy with the idea of reincarnation. It is possible, in my mind, that we are here on this earth until we get it right. The Hindu man you mention has gotten it right and he'll be moving on. Charles Manson has a lot to atone for - a few dozen lifetimes, I imagine.
Yea, I will say someone as they get older and have not sought salvation, their heart has hardened and there is no turning back on the other hand I read where Sam Berkowitz(Son of Sam) turned his life over to the Lord while in prison. The thing to remember is that God is the only one who knows the true heart of an individual.
There is only one path that leads to Heaven and that is through Jesus Christ who died on the cross for our sins. That is one thing that most Christians have in common and that is the cross.
Thanks for the comprehensive reply, Ella. I understand and respect your answer, but to me it raises one of the biggest problems I have with christianity - it often seems as though there are as many different versions of christianity as there are christians.
An argument that's often used against religion is that there are so many different religions in the world, most religious people are completely wrong about religion because the different religions are incompatible. You can say the same thing about christianity itself. If you take every christian in the world and ask them to describe their religion, you'll get so many different answers that its impossible to believe they're all talking about the same religion.
It seems clear that most christians must necessarily be completely, incompatibly wrong about the fundamental nature of their religion. So the question then is, how can the religion have any validity at all? You have people of so many very different belief systems, cherrypicking whatever details suit their personal view of religion, and all calling themselves christians, that the term "christian" doesn't even have any meaning anymore. There are so many obvious internal contradictions - fatal contradictions - in christian doctrine that I can't imagine how anyone can take christianity seriously. If it means something different to everyone who practices it, then at some point it doesn't really mean anything at all.
I totally see your point and I cannot say that I disagree with you. This is my take on the whole thing (one billion people, one billion "takes", so what is one more??? )
There are only 3 tenants to being a Christian: 1) believe in God 2)believe Jesus is God's son 3) believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins. That is what makes one a "Christian". Technically, everything else is just filler. Being a "good" Christian or a "trying my best to be a better" Christian is what all the "filler" is about.
It boils down to trying to be more "godly". For me, it boils down to trying to be more spiritual; to grow and to learn and to be in touch with my spiritual side. I think this is true for all "religions" all over the world. I don't have any love for organized religion (the man-made institutions) - my own or theirs. I think man has corrupted the whole point of God in many respects.
Being a Christian does not make one "good" and being a non-believer doesn't make one "bad". I think there is "good" and there is "bad" in all our lives and hearts. I am not talking Charles Manson bad or the Hindu man's good. I'm talking on a much smaller scale - such as bigotry. There are a lot of bigots out there professing to be Christians. Well, they are Christians according to the 3 tenants, technically, but they aren't using all that "filler" to become better people or more spiritual people. Many "Christians" are failing miserably. I fail miserably sometimes, too, and that is when I go to God and ask for forgiveness and ask to be able to do better. Christianity, in practice, is an evolution of our souls.
So, to try and answer your question: You are totally right. There are a lot of versions of practical Christianity. I say "practical" because becoming a Christian is the 3 tenants; putting Christianity into practice is a different matter. 40,000 denominations sprang up because 40,000 different "men" had their own ideas. I'm not sure anyone was consulting God on the matter. But then, I'm no different than those 40,000 men because I've got my own ideas, too. I just didn't run out and start a religion.
I think the "walk with God" is an individual one. So, I think ideas are going to be different. Some people depend on church to give them answers and some people, like me, try to find answers on their own. I think people are in different stages of that walk. I think that may be the whole point. It is not clear and it is not clear-cut because each has to find his own way and sort through the confusion to find "the answer", if one exists at all. I think that it is the confusion and the struggle that makes us grow spiritually. Sadly, I think we are kind of like rats in a maze. The idea is to find the way out of the maze. If it was a "paint by the numbers" straight shot from start to finish, we wouldn't learn anything. It is that "if you give a man a fish, he'll eat to today, but if you want him to eat for a lifetime, teach him how to fish" thing. I think we are being taught how to fish. All of this is predicated on the fact that I believe that this life is not the destination, but that the everlasting life is the quest. I believe that we must "earn" that everlasting life and that it comes with a hefty price tag.
If you remember the TV show, Fame... In the opening credits, there was a piece that showed the dance teacher saying (something to the effect of): You want fame; you have to pay your dues; well, this is where you start paying". That is kind of the way I see life.
Yeah, something along those lines. But also the whole Adam and Eve story, if you're going to take it literally. God set them up to fail, and Paul even concurs that God is responsible for subjecting all of humanity and the rest of creation to the suffering brought about by sin just so God can have mercy on everyone. On its face, at least, you have to admit that sounds like a sh*muck move. So yeah ... A peace offering, a "my bad" acknowledgment by becoming a part of humanity and tasting at least a little of the suffering you forced on them, might go a long way towards reconciliation.
And on top of that, if God is accepting responsibility for the suffering of this world, then God is also saying, "Look, I know you are all pissed off at each other for the horrible things you've done to each other and you want revenge. Well its My fault, see? You can be angry with me and punish Me because I can take it. Stop taking it out on each other."
Just thoughts on the " atonement" that I used to entertain.
Ok. I see where you are coming from and I understand your point. I can see the validity in what you are saying.
My vision is somewhat different, but it certainly doesn't make me right. It just makes me... different.
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