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Still can't figure out why a god is needed for morality to exist or accept the arguments I'm seeing here. I believe the entire development and evolution of civilized society is dependent on its capacity for empathy. When tribalism breaks down and people see the similarities between each other, that's when empathy develops.
I've grown up working with dogs since I could walk, and I've witnessed the capacity for empathy in the animals I've known. That tells me that empathy is an evolutionary trait, something that promotes a better society and the better survival of the whole.
And if one truly lives their life based on the principal of empathy, I really think that is the height of a moral life. It means you are always weighing how your actions affect others. It means you lead with kindness. It means you are motivated to do things for the greater good.
You don't steal because you wouldn't want it to happen to you. You don't murder because you recognize the grief it would cause in lives other than your own. You don't rape because you wouldn't want it to happen to your own sister/wife/mother.
It's the recognition of the sentience of other beings and the understanding that they feel pain, grief, love and joy just as you do. Explain to me how any god is needed.
And in fact, I think the Christian god gets in the way of empathy. The bible constantly sets up people of different faiths or tribes as "other" and justifies their destruction. It's been cited in endless acts of violence and oppression, such as the slaughter and enslavement of aboriginal peoples.
I'm not a very intellectual atheist, but I honestly don't see how people fail to understand how important empathy is as a guiding principle and how in the quest to define morality, it should override the demands of any deity.
Still can't figure out why a god is needed for morality to exist or accept the arguments I'm seeing here. I believe the entire development and evolution of civilized society is dependent on its capacity for empathy. When tribalism breaks down and people see the similarities between each other, that's when empathy develops.
I've grown up working with dogs since I could walk, and I've witnessed the capacity for empathy in the animals I've known. That tells me that empathy is an evolutionary trait, something that promotes a better society and the better survival of the whole.
And if one truly lives their life based on the principal of empathy, I really think that is the height of a moral life. It means you are always weighing how your actions affect others. It means you lead with kindness. It means you are motivated to do things for the greater good.
You don't steal because you wouldn't want it to happen to you. You don't murder because you recognize the grief it would cause in lives other than your own. You don't rape because you wouldn't want it to happen to your own sister/wife/mother.
It's the recognition of the sentience of other beings and the understanding that they feel pain, grief, love and joy just as you do. Explain to me how any god is needed.
And in fact, I think the Christian god gets in the way of empathy. The bible constantly sets up people of different faiths or tribes as "other" and justifies their destruction. It's been cited in endless acts of violence and oppression, such as the slaughter and enslavement of aboriginal peoples.
I'm not a very intellectual atheist, but I honestly don't see how people fail to understand how important empathy is as a guiding principle and how in the quest to define morality, it should override the demands of any deity.
Still can't figure out why a god is needed for morality to exist or accept the arguments I'm seeing here. I believe the entire development and evolution of civilized society is dependent on its capacity for empathy. When tribalism breaks down and people see the similarities between each other, that's when empathy develops.
I've grown up working with dogs since I could walk, and I've witnessed the capacity for empathy in the animals I've known. That tells me that empathy is an evolutionary trait, something that promotes a better society and the better survival of the whole.
And if one truly lives their life based on the principal of empathy, I really think that is the height of a moral life. It means you are always weighing how your actions affect others. It means you lead with kindness. It means you are motivated to do things for the greater good.
You don't steal because you wouldn't want it to happen to you. You don't murder because you recognize the grief it would cause in lives other than your own. You don't rape because you wouldn't want it to happen to your own sister/wife/mother.
It's the recognition of the sentience of other beings and the understanding that they feel pain, grief, love and joy just as you do. Explain to me how any god is needed.
And in fact, I think the Christian god gets in the way of empathy. The bible constantly sets up people of different faiths or tribes as "other" and justifies their destruction. It's been cited in endless acts of violence and oppression, such as the slaughter and enslavement of aboriginal peoples.
I'm not a very intellectual atheist, but I honestly don't see how people fail to understand how important empathy is as a guiding principle and how in the quest to define morality, it should override the demands of any deity.
Wonderful post. Well said.
In another thread about how to measure spirituality, I said I use an empathy yardstick. Your post explains what I meant better than I could.
^^^^ Sounds like the church I was raised in. Except that the fire and brimstone came from the liturgy instead of from the pulpit. Which in some ways made it more insidious: we'd recite the same liturgy every Sunday purely out of habit. We were essentially programming ourselves without even realizing it. I think a lot of people simply became de-sensitized to the horrible things we were actually saying.
If you are able to counter that argument, have at it. I haven't seen any sound arguments.
I did. At great length. You merely ignored and dodged the post. You maintain this narrative that there are no good arguments, by simply ignoring the ones there are, and dodging the posts you can not handle.
Am I clear enough? MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT! GOD IS NOT RIGHT SIMPLY BECAUSE HE'S BIG AND POWERFUL!
Actually, I agree with you.
The REAL reason why God is right is because it's the God YOU worship. If you worshiped a different God, that one would be right instead of this one. It's all about the ego of the believer which is how and why religion becomes such a touchy subject. We're not really talking about gods and bibles and religious rules. We're talking almost exclusively about the ego of the believer.
The idea that a believer could be wrong - so hopelessly wrong - about their religious beliefs is just too much to bear. Too much has been invested in belief to simply abandon it without a kick-down, claw-and-fang, drag-em-out fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Again...you need to answer the question of why you believe those things to be wrong? The best you've got is that it's your opinion. Nothing more. Maybe society agrees with you....so yay--it's you and millions of others. But you have no way to say that a previous generation, or a different society are wrong.
I know it won't do any good whatsoever to even respond to this - but sometimes I just can't let it go.
What you fail to realize, Vizio, no matter how many times we say this, is that your belief in your particular god and your particular holy book are themselves just opinions. It is your opinion that your god exists. Its your opinion that the Bible is true. It is your opinion that your morality is objective. It is your opinion that only your specific god is capable of establishing morality.
Opinion. Opinion. Opinion.
If not for multitudinous opinions, Vizio, we wouldn't have 3,000 or so gods to pick from and somewhere around 20,000 different Christian denominations, churches, sects, cults, and other organizations. Each believer of every god in any religion thinks their god is the only god and only that god's moral code is applicable to humanity.
Opinion. Opinion. Opinion.
No, you do NOT have absolute Truth in your corner. You just think you do. That's the narcissistic delusion of unwavering religious belief. The God YOU worship is always the right God, the God with all the answers, the God who is going to save you from some horrible fate in the afterlife. It's MY God therefore it is the correct God ... and everyone else. EVERYONE else is wrong.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
Am I clear enough? MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT! GOD IS NOT RIGHT SIMPLY BECAUSE HE'S BIG AND POWERFUL!
Sorry for yelling. But I've said that over and over again and yet I STILL see the lame statement that I claim that. Why would you CONTINUE to say that?
Do you grasp that yet?
Again...no. I've said the reason I add that phrase is simply so that no one can come back and say "well...if it was for the good of the society...." or some nonsense like that. It's for NO OTHER REASON except that the person in question WANTS to do it.
Again...you need to answer the question of why you believe those things to be wrong? The best you've got is that it's your opinion. Nothing more. Maybe society agrees with you....so yay--it's you and millions of others. But you have no way to say that a previous generation, or a different society are wrong.
So by your logic it's okay to torture babies if you don't want to do it. You're moral standard is based solely on the idea that whatever god says is moral is automatically moral, regardless of how those actions affect others.
What you're essentially saying is that you can torture babies if you think it's what god tells you to do. Regardless of whether you want to do it, you have to believe it is moral to torture babies if god tells you to. Not only that, you will have to carry that command out.
Your concept of god and their morals is not the only one out there. There are a plethora of god beliefs and the moral codes they supposedly prescribe. If god and religion are necessary for morality then you can't condemn the actions of the Nazis, slavery, torturing and murdering babies, women, men and children because someone thought god told them to. You have no reason to condemn Paul Hill for murdering an abortion doctor. This is the problem with you saying that atheists/agnostics can only form moral judgments based solely on opinion. Your moral standard is nothing more than your personal opinion. You may say it's what god says is moral, but it merely your opinion on saying that god is correct rather than the many other god concepts and divine moral codes.
Also, you've received many thoughtful responses, many times by many posters to your "questions" but you continually ignore them. The fact that you keep ignoring them and repeating the same question doesn't prove you're right. All it does is prove you're dishonest. Since you think that god is necessary to define right and maybe you should answer this question. I'll bold it so you won't miss it.
Would you torture babies if god told you to?
If you say yes then you're a monster. If you say no then you're not following your moral standard.
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