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A lot of that fall is attributed to cultural Christianity so they were Christian by name only. Doesn't count. Show me some concrete proof that it has dropped drastically from 2008- 2014 and maybe you have a point.
Regardless, doesn't sound like atheism is winning worldwide.
Ah yes, the famous "Moving the goalposts" . Used when peoples arguments have been destroyed and they aren't adult enough to admit they were wrong :lol. Most people who consider themselves Christians are "Cultural Christians." The actual number of true Christians is very slim, always had been. The number will continue dropping as the baby boomers die and people my age continue to stay away from the Church. I don't expect Atheism to be a force for at least a century or more. It will take the globalization of the world, and the modernization of it to allow non beliefs grow. Even so I feel spiritual beliefs likely will still hold out for a lot of people.
Freedom from religion in the atheist agenda sense has to do with erasing or scrubbing any public display of religion to the point where Christians must only display or practice their faith behind private closed doors.
Strange that you insist on repeating this lie given you have been called on it numerous times already and schooled on the reality. Though as usual I note you have simply ignored the posts that rebut you on this, skip over and dodge them, and simply proceed to perpetuate the same falsehood again.
The simple fact is however that few, if any, atheists have any issue with public displays of religion. I see it on peoples houses all the time, crosses and Mary statues in their gardens, Tshirts, Car Bumper stickers, club houses like churches, and much.... much much much.... much more.
And, brace yourself here for a dose of reality..... not one bit of it bothers me on ANY level in the slightest. Sorry to NOT fit your fantasy narrative. Again.
What DOES bother most atheists however is public displays of religion financed, sanctioned, facilitated or perpetuated by public institutions and government run or financed institutions. THAT is a violation of the issues involved.
As usual this reality simply does not track with the false one you are inventing and failing with remarkable consistency to support in any way.
That's not my point of all. Your examples have to do with the establishment of religion. Such as forcing people to participate in religious practices.
Yes, which your brand of Christianity attempts to do every day, all the time, at the local level. Remember the infamous gay marriage debate? Well, when Christianity says we must do everything in our power to keep gays from marrying, you are attempting to force your religious practices and beliefs onto the rest of society - whether we believe in the Bible or not.
And now we have an ignorant governor in Mississippi signing into law a bill that allows open discrimination based on so-called "sincerely held religious beliefs." Great, a government-sanctioned license to hate. Isn't that oh so typical of the Bible Belt.
In other words, Jeff, the crap you and your over-zealous pals try to pull actually affects people's lives. You'll just have to accept the fact that no self-respecting atheist is going to take your whines about not being able to plaster the landscape with crosses very seriously as long as people are being discriminated against because of your "sincerely held religious beliefs." Explain to me how your woes even begin to compare with the misery your type of Christianity has inflicted upon people who just want the same chance at happiness as you do.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Freedom from religion in the atheist agenda sense has to do with erasing or scrubbing any public display of religion to the point where Christians must only display or practice their faith behind private closed doors.
Some atheists have picked lousy battles to fight - sure, I understand that. Personally I would never have gone after something as trivial as a memorial. BUT ... the only "atheist agenda" (as you put it - wow, sounds so sinister, like the "gay agenda") ... the only "atheist agenda" is to ensure that the U.S. Constitution is upheld. Christians have had their way for so long that even breaking the law has become part and parcel of religious belief.
What you see as "erasing" or "scrubbing" away religion - I see it as finally fixing what has been broken for hundreds of years. Christianity or any other religion NEVER had the right to be displayed, taught, established, or promoted on any land or in any building owned by the local, state, or federal government. Your religion is not going to suffer for this nor is any person being persecuted or being denied their religious freedom (Christianity's doctrine does not require profusely advertising itself anywhere and everywhere).
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
This agenda has already been taken to extremes where there have been examples of school kids being punished for praying out loud at school.
What can I say other than that sometimes atheists do take it to the extreme. But if they are winning these battles then it's not really the atheists at fault, then, is it. No, it is the Christians' fault for doing something they were never supposed to do from the outset. You can't really cry over getting busted for breaking the law.
As for kids getting punished for praying out loud - heh - you should try talking to the untold thousands, perhaps even more, atheists who cannot even admit to being one without facing bullying at school, being ostracized from their friends, shunned by their families and some even risk losing their jobs. How many Christians can HONESTLY say the same for professing to be Christian in America, hmm? Do you even read these forums? Because there are plenty of atheists who have posted here talking about what they should do, how they should approach their friends and family, the ethical dilemma of having to lie about their beliefs or having to pretend to be Christian so they can "go along to get along" and on and on etcetera and so forth.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
That has NOTHING to do with establishing a religion.
The courts have consistently ruled that promoting a religion falls under the category of establishment. This is why putting up an innocent religious symbol is forbidden under the Constitution. Doing so would promote, thus establish, a particular religion.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If I want to say a prayer to Jesus Christ on the courthouse lawn, I should have the freedom to do so, but your side distorts the Constitution so much that somehow you claim this is government favoring a religion.
Now who is distorting the situation, hmm, Jeff? Since when has someone been admonished or kicked off the courthouse lawn for saying a prayer out loud? Sometimes I think Christianity has a fair number of agent provocateurs who deliberately push the boundaries of what is allowed in the hopes of getting into trouble. They are the modern day Christian martyr willing to risk legal trouble so other Christians will rally around and say, "See? See? Look what those atheists are doing ... atheists and their AGENDA!!"
A slightly side note on the point above about taking up trivial battles. This often does happen for sure, and my knowledge of the SPECIFIC case of this thread is minimal. But in a general point there are reasons why, for example, Dan Barkers foundation might take up trivial cases like this. And it is a good one. While the specific cases might be trivial, the legal precedent established if the case is won is not, and can latter be referenced and applied in greater battles.
So while _some_ cases may seem trivial.... and many indeed are trivial and even sometimes petty.... there are others which might be more tactical and relevant than many might realize at first. Legal precedent can be a powerful ally.
Just the one I pointed out and you are dodging and ignoring. AGAIN - an active issue with a public institution advocating a religious icon - is not an attack on "any public expression of faith of any kind". That is your exaggeration - your misrepresentation - your hyperbole - and your political propaganda spin. None of it true.
What is this "your side" stuff that you keep posting about? Is this about distorting the Constitution? Who picked sides? What do the sides represent? Who's in charge of the "sides?"
I am being very careful not to use political terminology here since it is not allowed. "Your side" is the only substitute I can come up with. It's pretty clear that there is a complete division on these topics, hence two sides. The term "fundie" is allowed (which I find carries a derogatory connotation) so how should I classify the opposition? Atheistic secularists?
To classify them you should start by ascribing accurate attributes to them, rather than the swath of things you have simply made up about them. You seem more driven by a Fox News style need to lash out at the opposite political wing, than by any drive to address to engage with things atheists and secularists actually DO say, think, want and do.
What is this "your side" stuff that you keep posting about? Is this about distorting the Constitution? Who picked sides? What do the sides represent? Who's in charge of the "sides?"
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I am being very careful not to use political terminology here since it is not allowed. "Your side" is the only substitute I can come up with. It's pretty clear that there is a complete division on these topics, hence two sides. The term "fundie" is allowed (which I find carries a derogatory connotation) so how should I classify the opposition? Atheistic secularists?
That makes no sense to me. I still have no idea what you mean when you keep posting "your side." Not knowing what you mean makes it impossible for anybody to know if they agree with what you say.
If you can't explain yourself in any terms other than political, perhaps you shouldn't have started the thread in the first place.
That makes no sense to me. I still have no idea what you mean when you keep posting "your side." Not knowing what you mean makes it impossible for anybody to know if they agree with what you say.
If you can't explain yourself in any terms other than political, perhaps you shouldn't have started the thread in the first place.
Your side - people, typical atheists, who demonstrate a relentless deep hostility towards Christianity or any element of society that is pro-Christianity particularly functions and laws of government. Their desire is to see government suppress freedom of religion using such mechanisms as discrimination and separation of church and state as the driving force.
The topic crosses the line between political and religious so I don't see any reason why it is not relevant to this forum.
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. Used when peoples arguments have been destroyed and they aren't adult enough to admit they were wrong :lol. Most people who consider themselves Christians are "Cultural Christians." The actual number of true Christians is very slim, always had been. The number will continue dropping as the baby boomers die and people my age continue to stay away from the Church. I don't expect Atheism to be a force for at least a century or more. It will take the globalization of the world, and the modernization of it to allow non beliefs grow. Even so I feel spiritual beliefs likely will still hold out for a lot of people.
